Pagan Coffee Talk
We will discuss topics related to the Pagan community. All views are from a traditionalist's point of view. The conversations are unscripted (no preparations have been made ahead of time). A special thanks to Darkest Era for the use of their songs: Intro- The Morrigan, Exit - Poem to the Gael. Check them out at http://darkestera.net/.
Pagan Coffee Talk
A Priestly Perspective on Grieving and Support
Have you ever struggled to support someone through the grieving process, wondering how to truly be there for them? Join us in this emotionally charged episode as we explore the stages of grief from a priest or priestess perspective, sharing our insights on how to help those who have lost a loved one. We break down the differences in how men and women may experience anger, and offer guidance on how to provide the space and understanding needed during such a difficult time.
Learn about the importance of keeping in touch with the grieving person, how different stages of life can impact the grieving process, and how the power of a kind word and simply being there can make a profound impact, showing that you care in the midst of loss and heartache.
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Welcome to Peg and Coffee Talk. Here are your hosts, Azwan and Lord Knight. Today's topic is stages of grief.
Speaker 2:Alright, we're going to be approaching this from a priest or priestess point of view, right, and helping people and watching other people go through this. I know that sounds might sound a little weird, but the question is is how do you handle this, right? You know, when a member of your temple has someone that's passed away, you have to help them get through this.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, I mean, it's part of the process.
Speaker 2:Right. So, again, i think it's something that all priest and priestesses should generally know. Maybe not be able to recite it line for line, right? You know what I mean, but yeah, so I'd like to do an overview on this, alright, so what's our first stage?
Speaker 1:Well, the first stage of grief is denial.
Speaker 2:Well, again, this is a very hard part of this, having to have helped a couple of people through it, mm-hmm, it is hard for them to sit there and look at people and go well, are you sure, are you sure they're dead, are you sure? There's always a question, right? So the first stage of the state. Normally that resolves itself when people see the body.
Speaker 1:A lot of times, a lot of times, yeah, right.
Speaker 2:Right, there's not a lot for us to do as priest and priestesses on this. Alright, because the denial thing normally happens within the first little bit, because we normally don't get caught until after they finally accept that these people are dead.
Speaker 1:Well, i think it goes a little beyond that too, because there's a whole thing of not really talking about your loss, right? And even when you do, it's a whole thing of acting like everything's okay, like nothing has really happened. Well, i mean, and trying to. I think it also goes into things like busying yourself with whatever else, so you don't have to confront those feelings.
Speaker 2:True, i mean, you have to get people to accept it. Like I said, normally this happens within the first little bit when it first happens, right, normally your past or your pastor and stuff like that they might get called when the end is starting to get near, if they're in hospice or something like that. Right, but there's a difference between someone having a car wreck and suddenly dying, true, compared to a long, because there is a difference between the emotional connection people have with someone who's been long-term sick versus someone who just suddenly dies. There is a big difference. Yes, right, if it's someone that's been on, like you know, that's got cancer or something that's been in hospice for a while, you have time to The individuals normally have time to deal with that through that process, right? So, again, the idea that these people are going to die that are long-term, is they sort of skip that?
Speaker 2:When my mother passed away from cancer, there was no denial about it. We already knew what was going to happen. It was just a question of when, right, you know, unlike the car wreck or the sudden heart attack, and you get those phone calls. Where are you sure it's them? Are you positive, right?
Speaker 3:Oh, no, no, no no.
Speaker 2:They couldn't have been in a wreck. That wasn't their car. No, do you see what I'm saying? This is that denial that you know we will get swept up into Right. You sort of got to hold the person's hand until they accept it, but the majority of the time, seeing the body itself helps resolve that. There's not a lot We have to do psychologically Right. So once confirmation is made that that stage is over to me I could be wrong, but I doubt too many people are going to argue with. There's the body, right, you know. So then we have to move to the next stage, which is Anger. Now this is a little bit more difficult. First of all, women show anger in a different way than men do. Yes, all right. Well, both of them might wind up punching you in the arm repeatedly.
Speaker 2:It's just it's just when the guy does it. You'd need to be a little bit more on guard. You know, normally when they win and I don't mean this bad when women do it, they're doing that, beating the chest real fast, short. You know what I'm saying? It's like that tentra tantrum, yeah, kind of thing, unlike a guy who might just turn around and punch you in the face Right.
Speaker 1:Well, and I think it also doesn't necessarily manifest as a physical anger.
Speaker 2:No, no, i'm just saying there you in that situation, as the outsider trying to comfort the family, you might want to keep your guard up.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, I mean. I mean you are dealing with anger, So it could very well manifest in that manner.
Speaker 2:Right. Plus, you got family members and you know everybody has that family member that nobody likes and irritates everybody, right? And you have to be on top of this because, again, emotions are already running hot. Please pay attention. Exactly, yes, all right, keep on reminding people, especially if they're pregnant. Sit down, take a minute, center yourself, center and ground yourself. Don't tell them to meditate. That ain't going to help a damn thing.
Speaker 1:No, not in this case, let's sit there.
Speaker 2:Let's tell them to go outside and sit down in a chair away from everybody, take some deep breaths, regather your thoughts and come back is a whole lot more helpful. Right, all right, because again they're going to cuss you out, they're going to be mad at you. Well, because you're their spiritual leader, they want to know, they want reasons.
Speaker 1:They won't answer. Well, yeah, they want reasons, but you got to also get to keep in mind that that anger could be at themselves. They could feel like they're at fault for their loved one passing away. They could be mad at doctors. They could be mad at first responders. They could be mad at anybody.
Speaker 2:Well, they got to keep that in mind. They could even be mad of the lack of attention they gave the situation. Right, because, again, i've seen it happen We both worked at hospitals where grandma goes in for a hip replacement and then all of a sudden passes away. Right, because there's always a risk of surgery. Now, this is where I see a lot of people get angry, where it's up in the air the reason why. So, some people, you might be walking into a situation where some people might feel like they're justified being angry because they think the hospital or somebody else did something wrong. Right? So, again, this is something we need to be you know, you need to be aware of and watch out for, and people will attack other people out of grief, out of loss Right?
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, and that's something that I was going to say too is that, you know, it could very well just be a, it could be an anger towards just the average person, people they don't even know.
Speaker 2:Well.
Speaker 1:I mean, I've seen a lot of people.
Speaker 2:They'll get angry with the gods. How dare they do this to me?
Speaker 1:Oh sure, well, I mean, when my dad passed away, my anger was first towards the gods, and then my anger was towards my dad, and then my anger was towards myself. So I went through several stages of anger within this one stage.
Speaker 2:Well, I think one of the anger points there is some people feel ashamed because they weren't there, right, they didn't. They might not necessarily have helped out as much as they could have. Again, it's something to be aware of. Yes, you need to put on your duct seat Because, again, warning priest and priestesses yes, people might try to hit you, people might cuss you out and all this other stuff. Again, you cannot take it personally. No, because it's really not against you. You just happened to be the person there that they need you to be, right? You?
Speaker 1:just happened to be. I was going to say you just might happen to be the punching bag in the room at the time, you know.
Speaker 2:It happens. Once we can get them past the anger part or whatever issues that they have with us, we get to move into yet the next one, which is bargaining. It never stops, and sometimes I think it's worse with witches. I've seen a lot of pay. I've seen a lot of witches over the years. They'll cast them circles in the whole nine yards and sit there and try to bargain with the gods to fix or to change this outcome Right And unfortunately, when our time's up, our time's up, there's no way to always fix it.
Speaker 1:Some people might think that bargaining is something that happens before death, but not necessarily.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:Bargaining is not just. Well, if I can recover from this situation, I promise I'll never do this again, or?
Speaker 2:whatever Some of that bargaining is, if you bring them back, yeah, some of the bargaining is yes. Some people are sitting there and they're asking for things that a lot of us know aren't ever going to happen.
Speaker 1:Right, but I think it also goes into, if only.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:When people say if only we had gone to a different hospital, they would have gotten better care.
Speaker 2:If only we'd done a different treatment. Right, but I hate to be this way. That also goes well. maybe if you were a little bit more healthier, maybe if you ate better, maybe if you didn't do this.
Speaker 1:it becomes a long list of things, but again the if only that turns into like an infinity stone, because it just keeps going and going and going. If you don't, it never stops, right, if you don't get a handle on it.
Speaker 2:No. So you just have to be careful. You can lose yourself to that Right.
Speaker 1:And if you say the things you really can.
Speaker 2:You know, and again, helping people to remind them no, we have cycles, right? You know, yeah, it's hard to sit there and when you see one of your coven members sitting there crying and all upset, you're doing this bargaining and you know it's not going to work and you're like, you have to accept it. We all have to stop at some point. Right, the cycle of you know, birth, death and rebirth has to happen And, no, it's not always comforting to people.
Speaker 1:It's not And that's and that's the hard part And I hate to be this way.
Speaker 2:Just to warn people. I've seen people do this and I could be wrong, but some people tend to slide backwards on that scale. Just because they're moving forward a little bit Don't mean that they might not suddenly jump back to the bargaining or the anger Right In that, because I think sometimes, as this process goes, people will have a new anger each day, something else they thought of, something else they thought they could have done Right, and it continues on forever. And then you also have those people sitting there going well, now there's another angel in heaven, or you know, that was got. Some people don't want to hear that.
Speaker 1:No, some people don't.
Speaker 2:You know, sometimes you have to sort of go with the flow of the individual. We've had somebody in temple. They lost a child, was still born, and literally she, she got to the point to where in the world she's like, okay, no, if I hear it one more time, if I hear somebody else, oh, it was God's plan, don't worry about it, you'll be fine and just think they're in a better place. She's like I don't want to think about that, a better place would be in my arms, right. You have to let people do that. Sometimes you might even have to go in there and be the heavy and tell everybody else to get the hell out of there and let the person be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you just might have to do that.
Speaker 2:So the next one up is depression Now this one is the one that can really bother people. Yeah.
Speaker 1:This is the one we have to keep our eye on. Oh yeah, definitely Depression. Is someone who has suffered with depression and dealing with depression with my mom as well. It can get really difficult at times. You know you can. You can lose all hope. You know that's. That's very easy to do.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's got to be one of the harder emotions to deal with because again you also got to remember, as a preacher or priestess, this isn't happening like 15 seconds, no, this could be a process that you could be going through with your coven members for months on end, easily, easily, trying to get them to slowly get there.
Speaker 2:So, again, this is one of the ones where you know it is best to keep an eye, i guess, and ask people and keep on asking the person, invite them over for dinner, make sure everybody else in the Coven are and bite them and doing things and trying to keep them busy. By the time you get to this stage, i think it's a little bit easier to get them to go out. Sometimes, right, you know, this is the time I say okay, if you're a preacher or a priestess, you might want to start bullying them a little bit to try to get them out, to try to get them out of the bed. Right, i mean, i'd say it mean. But you could be like okay, it's time to come up, your breath stinks. Right, you got to take a bath, you stink.
Speaker 1:It's like come on, do you realize what you're doing to yourself?
Speaker 2:I mean you're not doing this to be mean, You're doing this to try to get them up and motivated right, Try to get them out and start dealing with people and life. Absolutely Yeah sitting at the house or laying in bed is not going to solve the problem.
Speaker 1:Well, no, and a lot of times you know, people don't realize. But any type of depression, but especially grief related depression, you can start getting physical symptoms of other illnesses, You get aches and pains, So you it'll change your sleep patterns, I mean well, that's good to say.
Speaker 2:I've heard stories about being hypnotized and people being told that they were burning webs actually showing up on their arms. Yes, So again with depression. yeah, you can have psychological problems that manifest as physical problems, that cause of the psychological problem.
Speaker 1:Well, and then too it can be. I know that's confusing to say. I hope you said it right because I don't know.
Speaker 2:Way too much I'm done, way too much brain power.
Speaker 1:But I was going to say it can also lead into. If you have existing health problems, it could worsen those issues and it could even lead to new ones. So it is something it is very serious. You do need to keep an eye on it. Just keep in touch with your folks, you know.
Speaker 2:Right, i mean, don't leave them just completely hanging, but Oh no, no, you need to be there for them. So then we have our last one, which is The last one is acceptance. Even when they do accept it and they've come to that place of peace, it ain't done it over with. No, it's not Small. Things can set people back easily, and it needs to be aware. You still need to keep up and communicating as much as possible with these people.
Speaker 1:Well, and you know, it's one of those things where it's like it could be a song on the radio. It could be right, the smell of a certain flower I'm not a bad joke, i know right, and it doesn't have to be a complete setback, but it will be one of those things where you will notice the person withdrawing a little bit or they might tear up or, you know, could be little things like that. Just again, you got to keep an eye on your folks.
Speaker 2:Slow, progressive. I mean don't get me wrong There are some advantages on depending on the age of the person that passed away. Newborns are a little bit harder if they're still born because there's not a lot of memories there to pull from, happier memories to pull from Right. Besides, you found out your sonograms and all this other stuff You know, unlike you know someone who was 25 or something where you have a plethora of funny stories and jokes and stuff that this person did You see what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:When there's an, when there's actually a history there, it's a little bit easier to pull people out versus someone who's really young, right? So when kids die and stuff like this, it's a little bit harder. It's going to be a little bit harder for you as a pre-store priest, because there's not a history to pull from to help people get into a happier mood or to tell happier stories about the person, just to remind them that the person's still with them, right? So again, this is something you got to take into account when you're talking to these people, because again lately we've been saying you're never quite sure what's going to set people off, what someone needs to hear versus what they don't need to hear, right, you know? because, again, not hearing things is just as important as hearing the right things, oh for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're going to have to. Yeah, you're going to do your normal stuff and encourage them. Yeah, you need to do your meditations. It will help over time. Be patient with it and do it a little bit at a time. If you can get them to the point where they finally can meditate and, given enough time to get over their grief, you can even start to suggest to them, start to meditate on that person, try to create a psychic connection so they can still talk to the person that is crossed over Right You know and again explain to them. Sometimes if you're going to do this, it might take the other person time to adjust over there before they can communicate with you Right, Yeah, because I mean there's an adjustment period for them as well.
Speaker 2:Right, i mean for them. They're moving on to a new life. To a certain extent. You could think about it this way They're just been born into a new life, right To a certain extent. That's how hard it is. Anything else you want?
Speaker 1:Well, it's. But yeah, like, how long does grief usually last?
Speaker 2:It depends on the person And the end and believe it or not, even the connection to the person you know and how that relationship was Okay. Older relationships may be easier to get over in the long term. It can also be harder in the short term because, again, the close connection between So when you got someone, a couple that's been married and one passes off and the other one's still there, yes, you got a lot of memories to pull through and all this. But some people do die of a broken heart. It does happen. You know people will sometimes just give up and pass away, and especially if they're older. So again, it's these people. When people pass away after older members of your coven, you might want to go by and see them on a more regular basis than especially when it first starts and you work your way up from there And it's really hard to tell you what to do and what not today because each person is so different in this subject.
Speaker 1:Right, well, and I think that there's also two different types of grief. There's one that's more like normal grief, that would be like the five stages, but I think that one's a little easier to overcome and to get through. And then there's one that's a little more complicated, where it's like it's so intense that it's going to last for a longer period of time and it may even be debilitating to people.
Speaker 2:Well, i've seen people get into this and trying to keep everybody on the right track. I like work with this woman for years and her son passed away and she still, as far as I know, to this day, has not ever got over it.
Speaker 1:That's it. Yeah, that's exactly what I'm talking about. That's right, that intense grief that people just cannot move through.
Speaker 2:Well, and again you have this type of thing, especially when you're dealing with parents who have lost kids versus kids who have lost their parents.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, because it's that whole adage that parents shouldn't be burying their children.
Speaker 2:No, and it is much harder on the parent in which you know, even though my mom was a full adult for many years, right, my, her mom passed away, then she passed away And it was very shortly after that my grandfather just passed away And we really just think he died of a lonely heart because he done buried his wife and his oldest daughter Right, even though he's got three other kids. But that's still a hard pill for some people to swallow.
Speaker 1:Well, sure, and you know. and that's one thing about the older generations as well. Once something like that happens, they're left alone.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And so there's, there's an extra stage I think that they have to go through, and that's the whole getting adjusted to being by themselves again.
Speaker 2:You know, the only thing I can tell priests and priestesses when dealing with this be patient, take your time and listen to them. You, you, you rarely have to say or do anything. You let them talk, you let them cry, you, you are literally there as a punching bag. If they're angry, you would rather them get angry at you than their families and other people that they actually need, because you need to understand what in the world these people are going through, right, and I've seen a lot of priests and priestesses go out and do this and start taking this stuff more personally when they should. Oh no, you can't do that. No, all right, this you cannot do. I mean, don't get me wrong.
Speaker 2:One thing about being, you know, pagan is we have priestesses, so you can kind of tag team. If you need a break, right, there's nothing wrong with you taking that break, going outside of the room, sitting down, centering, grounding yourself and doing a little bit of meditation. then go back into the room And continue to deal with. I want to make sure that priest and priestesses understand this is just as much stressful on us as it is them For sure. All right, we have to take care of our own mental and emotional health in this process too.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, because I mean, if you I've heard it said before in various ways if you can't take care of yourself, how do you don't take care of somebody else? What is that if you can't love?
Speaker 2:yourself How the hell are you going to love somebody else?
Speaker 1:You're going to love somebody else Can I get an amen up in here? Thank you, RuPaul. Hallelujah.
Speaker 2:I mean, i know it's a sad subject, but it's a subject I think people in the pagan community, priest and priestesses, we need to talk about. We need to find ways, and helpful ways, to support each other, as we support our Kevin members going through this Right. You've got to take care of yourself on that.
Speaker 1:You do, and I think the biggest thing is being able to talk about it. If you're counseling someone who's going through grief, i think the important thing is to get them to talk about it. The more they talk about it, the better understanding they can have about what it is they're experiencing.
Speaker 2:And again I'm back to you. Normally you don't have to say anything. No, you can ask. You can sit there and ask questions. Well, what were they like this? Just to keep them going? Right, you're right. The more you can get them the talk, the more you can get them to think about what they're saying and what in the world they're going through, the faster they're going to work through it. Yes, what you need to pay attention is for when they get that quiet, stared off into the sunset, when they're not actually thinking about things And they're just wallowing in that emotion.
Speaker 1:It's okay to take a break, like you said, it's okay for everybody, even those experiencing the grief. It's okay for them to take a break, but just don't let it get to the point where they're spiraling into something deeper and darker, into that place where there's no point of return.
Speaker 2:I mean, don't get me wrong There are going to be times where, yeah, you're just going to be sitting in a chair on a couch and having this person curl up into the side of you and just cry, and there ain't nothing you can do. All you can do is just sit there and be there for them.
Speaker 1:Right, be there for them.
Speaker 2:That's it, and it sounds mean. It might sound mean when I'm saying this. You really ain't got to do much, but be there, right. I mean understanding and helping them and guiding them as best you can through this process And, like I said, you still have to take care of yourself.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, you do. You'd have to take care of yourself, But that's exactly where I was leading with this. Sometimes you have to take a break and you need to go talk to somebody as well.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Because you're taking on a lot.
Speaker 2:You know, getting people. I can sit here and give you strategies and stuff in hospital rooms or if you can get them outside of the house and walking around, and it helps to have people out in nature and stuff like that, if you can. If it's cold and raining, no, you're not going to be able to do that, but you sort of have to think of other ways to try to get these people to think, to engage with other people around there, right?
Speaker 1:Because, like you said, it could be as simple as going for a walk. Get them out of the house, go get something to eat.
Speaker 2:Get them to talk to other family members, to get them to understand you're not the only one, right? You know you have family members. They're going through the same pain. If you stand with them, they'll help you just as much and you'll help them. So, again, it's more of a guide than you. Actually, i don't want to say that like we're not doing anything at all, but you don't, right?
Speaker 1:I mean you are, but you're not.
Speaker 2:Right, I don't know how else to put that. So, but because you are there, you do need and, trust me, you'd be surprised at how fast people remember. Oh yeah, I mean who, who was there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i mean, how many times have I know? there's been a lot of times that I've said to people, you know, when they say, well, i wish I could have done more for you. Well, you know what You were there.
Speaker 2:That's it.
Speaker 1:That in and of itself was huge, and I've had people say the same thing to me. You know, sometimes that's all it is. You, just you, just being there.
Speaker 2:Right, you know, letting them know somebody cares. A kind word goes a long way in this Right It goes a long way. So I think that's about it.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening. Join us next week for another episode. Peg and Coffee Talk is brought to you by Lifetime and Seminary. Please visit us at lifetimepleseminaryorg for more information, as well as links to our social media Facebook, discord, twitter, youtube and Reddit.
Speaker 3:We travel down this trodden path, a maze of stone and mire. Just hold my hand as we pass by a sea of blazing fires. And so it is the end of our days, so walk with me till morning breaks, and so it is the end of our days, which is Is manifest.
