Pagan Coffee Talk
We will discuss topics related to the Pagan community. All views are from a traditionalist's point of view. The conversations are unscripted (no preparations have been made ahead of time). A special thanks to Darkest Era for the use of their songs: Intro- The Morrigan, Exit - Poem to the Gael. Check them out at http://darkestera.net/.
Pagan Coffee Talk
Creating Holy Relics and Teaching Old Dogs New Tricks
Ever wondered if magic has the potential to modify reality physically? Could ritual objects or spiritual energy exposure imbue them with mystical properties? We unravel this complex topic, beginning with an exploration of magic's impact on reality. The focus is on whether objects like Excalibur and the Holy Grail become magical through belief or if they are imbued with power through rituals and spiritual energy. We also question how exposure to ritual objects and magical energies could alter one's reality perception. This discussion promises an insightful examination of whether our perceptions might be shaping our reality.
Transitioning from the mystical to the educational, our conversation leads us into another intriguing topic - the teaching of adults. Our discussion covers the concept of 'un-teaching' and how it could potentially deepen understanding. But tread carefully; venturing too deeply into the spiritual realm may have its psychological consequences, a critical dimension we examine in this segment. We delve into effective strategies for teaching adults. Here we stress the importance of facilitating self-exploration, enabling individuals to question their beliefs and, ultimately, change their minds. We wrap up by underscoring the necessity for engaging debates and focused conversations, the tools that help reveal logical flaws and prompt a deeper understanding of our world.
Join us on
Discord: https://discord.gg/MdcMwqUjPZ
Facebook: (7) Life Temple and Seminary | Facebook
Music. Welcome to Peg and Coffee Talk. Here are your hosts, azwan and Lord Knight. Today's topic is Drumroll. Please, can magic really affect reality? In other words, is it just a perception on the part of the caster, or does it really change, physically change what's going on in the world around us?
Speaker 2:Okay, because we talk about it changing the odds and kind of like it is not actually changing anything, but it's like moving the molecules around to get you know that snail to move two inches to the left. For some reason, that's the way we normally think about this. But here's my question what about these magical items we hear about?
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:The cauldron of the dog, the leofal, all right. The sword of Nawada Am I doing that right? Is it Nawada? And the spear of Lou Lou? Yeah, try to remember if I'm not getting them backwards. But then you got stuff like axe caliber, the holy grail, right. So it makes me wonder do these things become magical because of their usage in ritual? Is magic changing these items on a molecular level somehow?
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Are you with me when I'm asking?
Speaker 1:So you think it's more of the ritual use or the belief in these items?
Speaker 2:Okay for everybody else, you're going to hate me for a second. Think about the one item that we've repeatedly used during initiation. For as much energy as this particular item is right Exposed to high levels of spirit energy, could there be something that's changing it on a molecular level on the inside, slowly, over time?
Speaker 1:I suppose it's possible, yeah.
Speaker 2:Do you know what item I'm talking about? Right?
Speaker 1:Yes, yes.
Speaker 2:Okay, I mean but do you see what I'm saying? That somehow over time that could enough spirit energy in there to actually convert this thing into something else, or somehow I don't know how to explain that To where in the world it has an actual magical ability to it. I mean, I would say yes, the possibility is there.
Speaker 2:I don't know if that's what it's actually doing, but but I mean, you're exposing certain items, let's say, we've exposed certain items over and over again to these rituals, these beliefs, this energy, over and over again. Right, you know? Could this be what actually makes your Excalibur's, these weapons, and well, not just weapons, but all these other holy items that we've heard about over the Millennials from multiple religions, because they're not the only one, because what in Christianity, what is it? If you touch the finger of one of the saints is supposed to heal you, or something?
Speaker 1:Something like that. Yeah, I mean, Catholicism has a lot of relics that are believed to hold special abilities.
Speaker 2:And you know that.
Speaker 1:And one is the finger of a saint, I don't remember which saint, but I don't either. I've heard of it, but I know it's housed in one of the churches in the UK, but I don't know.
Speaker 2:I can't remember which saint, but I mean, let's just think about the most powerful relic that we've ever heard of in history and that's like the Ark of the Covenant alone. Right, all right. Again, my question is could we over time? I'm not talking about you know, I'm not talking about just my lifetime. You're with me.
Speaker 1:I'm talking about no, we're talking like decades, generations.
Speaker 2:yes, Generations and generations upon generations. Well, I guess there's the question Do these relics actually become holy or powerful because we believe them to be, or are they actually? Is magic changing the properties of these things?
Speaker 1:Well, that's kind of where I was going with the whole thing is. Is it just our perception? I mean, I don't know. That's why I'm kind of bringing this up, because for some people I believe that it turns to be more of a perception. Yeah, you've used these items over and over again. And for those who don't really believe in magic, but they believe in the usage of the items, they're still essentially doing the same thing.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, to a certain extent, we could look at it this way Well, let's just take the whole magic concept out. That's energy directed at intent, spiritual energy where it's just directed to deity or each other, and stuff like that. So it's a little bit more free flow there. So are these items actually healing people? Are they actually doing this, again, like you said, or is it our perception? Are we dealing with more the, yeah, the, oh God? What is that? The revival tent people?
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Who gets the old guys so riled up and all this and so full of adrenaline and stuff they can get up and walk around, but the very next day they're back in their wheelchair, twice as much in pain. Is this what's happening versus an actual miracle or magic?
Speaker 1:I mean, it's a good question, and is there a way to prove it in either direction?
Speaker 2:Well, the only way I can see to prove it, and really self-sustained up, is to analyze something as much as you could then go okay, here, we'll see you in five or six generations.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And we'll test it again.
Speaker 1:Is anybody willing to do that, though? I mean, if somebody's willing to do that, by all means do so and then publish the results, because this is this is really interesting.
Speaker 2:I know a lot of people will hear this ago. Well, we have the whole entire thought that we create reality as we move through the world.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So therefore it can change. Well, only bad thing about that is there's too many people here. Not everybody's reality become true, unless you're thinking of multiple dimensions, parallel, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 1:Right. That's why I'm asking is it, does it really affect our reality?
Speaker 2:Well, because, because, again, the idea here is either the energy is actually coming from the item itself or it's coming from the people who believe in the item.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm not just talking items, I'm talking spellcasting.
Speaker 2:Well, have you ever been into them places? Have you ever been to one of these older churches? Oh yeah, that have been around. I mean, you know that's two 300 years old, blah, blah, blah and you can feel that energy that's in there, that you know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So there's something going on there. But again we're asking is it the building or is it the people in the building?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, as far as something like that goes, is it? Is it more of the perception because it has been around for so long? You know what? I mean, we're just walking into it and you're in awe, you know.
Speaker 2:Well, again, it depends on your mindset, I guess, but because I also have to ask the question. You know, if it is the way we perceive it and it's not really going on, are we fooling ourselves just because people talk about it? Is it the hype, the expectation?
Speaker 1:Right, and is it something that we just really want to believe in?
Speaker 2:Right, I mean it is.
Speaker 1:Therefore, we're making it true for us.
Speaker 2:Right, see, there's a lot of questions here because again I can't see, because again we're still looking at this about the same way we're looking at what we refer to, those, those echoes that we've heard about from in the schools. Oh yeah, schools and elevators, and where you can still hear nothing malevolent or anything. But you hear kids, you know, laughing and giggling and running up and down the halls and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:It's just the same process. And even then, where's this energy being stored? Is it actually infusing in the building itself? Is it infusing into the atom, to the electrons?
Speaker 1:If this is what's happening, and so, if it is, then yes, I would think that it would take, like generations upon generations upon generations, for any type of molecular change to take effect.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:So it's probably not anything like you and I would see in our lifetime.
Speaker 2:No, no, but you have to ask these questions because you know you have the Muslim faith where they do that pilgrim, pilgrimage to the make sure I'm trying to say that right the Mount of the Rock, where the temple used to be in Israel. But I'm sorry, this place is active all the time and you've got all them people there. It's hard for me to believe that that energy is not left there.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:But then, on the other hand, with all them people there, how can you tell the difference?
Speaker 1:True.
Speaker 2:But could the same thing be said about haunted houses?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I suppose it could.
Speaker 2:You know, I mean like we grew up where we lived. There's a some stories about a school in the local area that was shut down years ago. Were there actual ghosts there, or was it everybody in the town's belief that this place was haunted that made it haunted? So again, I don't think it's necessarily. The things that we're talking about is necessarily two items, just like the Holy Grail, the Holy Grail, blah, blah, blah. It could be in other places too, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you were talking about that. I forgot what it's called, but there's an actual term like a totem or something like that.
Speaker 2:Oh, a topa.
Speaker 1:Topa yes.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, a topa is more like a thought form.
Speaker 1:Right, but again, it's something that so many people believe in. It actually manifests. So that's kind of like with the school where we lived.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:You know, was it really haunted or was it just manifested by the people who lived in the area? Because of all the stories?
Speaker 2:Well, and then you have all the folklore around there because there's some horrific stuff. I've heard about that. I don't know if it ever actually happened. It wasn't like I went looked it up.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:You know, I don't know too many people that did that. Hmm, so I'm not exactly sure which we're actually doing here, if we are somehow changing things more lecturely or on a subatomic level, slowly over time, to make these items that normally would just be regular household items to something greater than themselves.
Speaker 1:Or if it's just our perception of these items or the perception of the spell that's actually making the change.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, and again, if you've ever been exposed to one of these items or something like that, you might have a different take on it, but then you would. But then you can also look at somebody and not tell them what an item is and see how they react when they are placed in front of the item.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:And so I think that's the kind of but how are you going to do that with something like the? What is that? The shroud or the tower? The shroud or the tower. Yeah, I mean, how are you going to do it? It isn't like people just don't know what in the world that is.
Speaker 1:No, pretty much everybody knows what that is.
Speaker 2:I mean my pagan witchy ass even knows what it is Right, and I know it enough to get the name wrong.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I suppose there are. There are items that we could, you know, pass along to somebody and say what's your impression of this? I mean, I didn't tell them what it is, but I mean?
Speaker 2:because what In Ireland? There's supposedly the stone of you know the Lea Felt, still in Ireland in a certain spot, and you can visit it. Right. And this is an item that's been part of rituals and magic over and over again. You know, are you actually going to get that feeling from that stone, or does it go away because people quit believing in it or quit worshiping there, quit putting energy into it? So a lot of questions and no answers.
Speaker 1:That is so true. No answers.
Speaker 2:You know I'd like to don't get me wrong. Personally, I would like to think that, yes, that the energy itself over time, especially when you're using the same items over and over again. All right, so your altars and certain other things can suddenly become endowed with extra energies.
Speaker 1:Mm, hmm.
Speaker 2:I mean good Well, we've talked about it with circle casting that we believe in an agrarian field where the energy sort of stays there in the house.
Speaker 1:Right. I mean, I'm a believer in that and I believe that's something that really happens. I'm also in my opinion and I know it's probably not going to be a popular one, but in my opinion, if you're dealing with magic, you're using something Whether it be incense or candles, or flame or water or whatever to do your magic spell. But that's to change your perception of what's happening or to alter your own consciousness Right and I don't believe you're really. It's more like a confidence boost.
Speaker 1:Yeah and that's you know, again, that's my opinion. It's not gonna be a popular one, but I just I Don't think that magic actually changes your reality, well, the reality of people around you. It'll change your reality because it changes the way you perceive things.
Speaker 2:Well, I'd like to think that magic can can affect the world in small ways.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, I'm not saying it doesn't, but you know again.
Speaker 2:You know I'm like you. You know there's no spell that's suddenly going to make the universe work backwards. No there's limitations on magic. You know, when you think about it a certain way, it makes better sense. But right. You know these items themselves. They seem to sometimes defy normal Logic on how in the world they're supposedly working.
Speaker 1:They do yes.
Speaker 2:Well then you also gotta ask yourself is where are they? Where, what, where? Where is that sword?
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, I mean we know where the Lea failed is, but where's? Where's the sword in the spear? No, we know what happened to the college when they got destroyed, but I've never heard about the spear of the sword. Yeah, you know what I mean, right? Just like you know the the Ark of the Covenant, right? Where are the? Where are these items? If they are real? Where are they? Are they that powerful that somebody with enough knowledge went Nope, we got to hide this from everybody.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but as many people, as many people have searched for things especially like the Ark of the Covenant, and I Mean surely somebody's found something somewhere along the line. Hmm, I don't know.
Speaker 2:I'd like to know where they're at, but yeah, I mean I do have to agree.
Speaker 1:Where are these items? You know?
Speaker 2:well, I mean, and it's not like you know Ireland's gonna allow anybody to dig up the Lea Felt and take it into a Lab to kind of discuss, you know, oh no, no.
Speaker 2:No, you know. And even then, after how long it's been there and how long it's been used, yes, it might have only changed a slight bit inside right, did you sort of saying I don't think again. This process takes a long time. And Then I still have to ask the question is what happens if you quit putting energy in there? People quit using that? Does it dissipate? Does it dissipate?
Speaker 1:does it stew in its own juices, so to speak? Does it still continue to grow because of the amount that's already been put into it?
Speaker 2:Does it keep on pulling more and more energy to it like a magnet right? Or does it just release at all? So many questions, so few answers, right.
Speaker 1:The topic is teaching adults.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Not sure where you want to go with this, but that's the topic.
Speaker 2:Well, another responsibility of a second degree, or the second, or should I say I don't want to say a responsibility, but all second degrees can teach. So, again, education and teaching, just like in therapy and for counseling and stuff like that I think is needed. You know, that's that mid-grade.
Speaker 1:Gotcha. Yeah, not the full octane, but it's mid-grade, it's mid-grade.
Speaker 2:Now let's state this Teaching kids is one thing, Teaching adults is completely different.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:The reason being is with kids, you're starting with nothing All right, yeah. To a certain extent, you're not really. You teach them the read, you teach them the talk. You teach them. So there's less of this you have to do. When you're teaching adults, one of the things you have to do is start learning how to un-teach people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Now that's an interesting concept.
Speaker 2:All right, because sometimes we get certain thoughts or certain concepts in our head and while they seem like they work for us and all this we don't always look at the negative side of these things that we believe in.
Speaker 1:You're with me on that. Yeah, I mean there's a positive and negative to everything, right, and there's a negative side to the stuff that we believe in. Oh God, jeff, I mean you just have to examine everything.
Speaker 2:Yes, there is a fear of going too far into the spiritual. You know that this can cause psychosis and other mental problems if stayed there for too long. Right, all right. So again, but we have to learn how to un-teach, or we have to learn how to teach people how to un-teach themselves, right, first of all, when you're teaching adults, we have to first of all sort of get into places where communications understand. So one of the first things we sort of do is go over definition of certain words, right, normally, when we're talking that way, we can sit there going, okay, this is what A is going to mean, this is what B is going to mean and this is what C is going to be. Because if we don't, we're going to get really confused when we start talking about these things.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Because I might have a definition that you might consider it different. Just look at all the gender stuff going on right now. Everybody's arguing over All right.
Speaker 2:Again this same thing, then, without humiliating or anything like that, starting to get down to the point to where in the world you can get these people to start defending what they believe or trying to explain. Because it's one thing to sit there and go hey, you know what I believe this, I believe in reincarnation, whatever. It's a different thing when you're sitting there going okay, but why? And getting that person to tell you, all right. Because, again, a lot of times where, if there is a problem or a where you might think there might be a flaw in their logic, having them say it out loud helps to sometimes illustrate that problem.
Speaker 1:Well now, could this be considered to by some? Could this be considered by some to be a form of manipulation? No, brainwashing, because we are getting people to question things that they didn't think to question.
Speaker 2:Well, I think if your question ain't anything, it's better than nothing.
Speaker 1:So we're not really trying. We're not really trying to change people's minds. We're trying to get them to change their own minds. Right, if that's the way it's going to happen. We're just trying to get them to question their beliefs, question this and question that, to make sure they know what they're standing for.
Speaker 2:Right being a management and you're talking to an employee who's done something wrong nine times out of 10, you already know what world they did.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And I'll just sit there and let them keep on running their mouth until they finally tell on themselves Right, this is the same thing we're doing. We're not manipulating you. We're allowing you to do it to yourself. What we're doing is we're not telling you hey, there's a whole 50 feet in front of you. You know you need to step off to one side or the other to avoid it. We'll let you fall straight into the hole. Why? Because you learn better. That way, Once you've fell in that hole a couple of times, you'll go oh here's where in the world I keep on going wrong on this, Right, this is the way you have to teach adults. All right, kids, you can tell this and they'll listen to you and accept what in the world you're doing, even if the logic's not there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because they've not learned the logic.
Speaker 2:Well, they haven't learned not to necessarily believe or trust everything people tell them. Right?
Speaker 1:So it's 100% true.
Speaker 2:It's 100% true. I'm sorry, what was that, Bartleman Bailey? I always said there's a sucker.
Speaker 1:There's a sucker born every minute.
Speaker 2:Right, and you can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all the people all the time. Right. This is what we're talking about. This is what you got to keep in mind when you're talking to adults or trying to teach adults, right, okay?
Speaker 2:You're not going to change their minds. You have to. We have to give them tools to change themselves. If you talk to any therapist or anything, they're going to tell you the same thing. They don't make the breakthroughs. They don't do this stuff the client does, and teaching is the same way with adults. You're with me. So this is what you need to be more focused on. You have to be focused more on the rebuttals, the arguments for your side versus the other side. We're not talking about doing some humiliation or some type of ritual like this. We're talking about literally having a debate, having a conversation with someone.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can see that.
Speaker 2:You know it's really hard to sit there and get that one girl or that one guy to really get all excited about quantum physics, because, well, it's part of craft and part of what in the world we do and how we see the world. That's not an easy task to do, except for unless you keep on sitting there showing them over and over again hey, this is where in the world we believe this because of quantum physics, and this is what it tells us.
Speaker 1:Right, this is how it relates to the real world, yeah those help out the most.
Speaker 2:And again and this is really hard because I know a lot of people will want to be more aggressive, all right, I'm not saying you know, when you're sitting there and you're, you've been going around in circles with a student for you know 10 minutes that you're not getting aggravated yourself, right, you know you're like wait a minute, you're trapped in a logic loop and I can't get you out of it because you won't listen to exactly what the world we're saying.
Speaker 1:Right. Sometimes it helps to have somebody else come in and try to explain it. It doesn't always work, because people do get trapped in that logic loop.
Speaker 2:Right, because I've known for me to sit there and tell somebody the same thing in like five or six different ways in like five minutes, and may keep on making up analogies over and over again until I strike across one that helps them, right.
Speaker 2:Maybe not the whole class, but them Well keeping in mind. Hey, when you're doing a class that's one on one, this ain't that big of a deal, but when you're dealing with a class with more than one person, this starts to eat into the other person's time too, exactly, yeah. So sometimes you got to be careful, and sometimes you might even have to look at these people going. You might have to wait until after class for us to go back and revisit this, right, and it might even be good for you to even maybe give yourself a couple of days to rethink about and all this then bring the person back over, right, because we all know that thing as soon as the conversation is over, as soon as the meeting's over and you walk away, we all do the same thing. I should have asked. I forgot to ask, or?
Speaker 2:you know what I just thought about you know, Again, these are the questions that you need to write down in a notebook somewhere.
Speaker 1:Right, and you know, and that doesn't only go for the students, that goes for the teachers as well, because a lot of times the teacher will just, you know, they'll have that issue, like we were just talking about, and then, as soon as the students leave, it's like oh, you know what I could have said this, or I could have said it this way, or I could have used this as an example. Exactly so, it happens, the same way. So be sure to write all your stuff down as it comes to your head. I mean, if you don't, it's going to be gone.
Speaker 2:Take notes. Take notes on your students. That way you know if, and especially if you find out hobbies about people all right things that they're interested in, and if you can somehow use an analogy to describe certain things that they're interested in, it makes it easier for them to grasp the hold of some of these concepts, absolutely. Now don't get me wrong, not all hobbies fit perfectly inside certain analogies and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sometimes you do have to make it stretch, but, yeah, sometimes you're reaching really hard for that. That's just not there.
Speaker 2:But what? But again, what you're doing is, it's not that you're trying to make up stuff, you're trying to get something that this person's interested in, to kind of pull them out of that.
Speaker 1:Right, you have to make it relatable.
Speaker 2:Exactly. It's fine and dandy for me to sit here and say all this, but if I'm sitting here and I'm teaching someone who's a shelf, I'm going to use food and stuff like that as analogies, because they understand that, or are you going to try to at least. I'm going to try to you know, but this also means, when you're teaching, that you need to sort of maybe start taking an interest in some of the hobbies that some of your students are having at least enough to have an idea of how to talk to them or even use them to help train them Again.
Speaker 1:It's it's that whole and I hate to use cliches, but it's that whole thinking outside of the box. Thank you. You got to get out of the normal way of thinking about things and you know, like you said, if you can find something relatable, that's the perfect way to do it.
Speaker 2:I know it's going to sound really nasty and all this when I say this. But hey, think outside the box, thinking somebody else's box.
Speaker 1:Pretty much.
Speaker 2:I mean, I mean, that's all you're doing is? Hey, I'm just, you know, like when I discuss things with you and you're having a hard time, I tend to try to use music analogies with you versus what I would for somebody else who likes electricity. I mean right Somebody like yourself somebody like myself. Actually, I was thinking about Lord Raceland. Like you know, if I, if I'm talking to him, I'm going to be talking electronics and electrical, because that's what he does for a living. Right, you're with me, so I'm out of coffee.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening. Join us next week for another episode. Peg and Coffee Talk is brought to you by Life Temple and Seminary. Please visit us at lifetimepleseminaryorg for more information, as well as links to our social media Facebook, Discord, Twitter, YouTube and Reddit.
