Pagan Coffee Talk
We will discuss topics related to the Pagan community. All views are from a traditionalist's point of view. The conversations are unscripted (no preparations have been made ahead of time). A special thanks to Darkest Era for the use of their songs: Intro- The Morrigan, Exit - Poem to the Gael. Check them out at http://darkestera.net/.
Pagan Coffee Talk
Balancing Autonomy and Guidance for Spiritual Growth
Are we unknowingly hindering or cultivating potential by adopting an 'attitude of craft' in learning and teaching scenarios? Well, let's dive in and find out. Brace yourself as we challenge conventional attitudes towards learning, questioning the efficacy of self-discovery in the educational process. We evaluate the merits and the pitfalls of this approach, examining how it shapes individuals' abilities and growth.
But, we don't stop there. The conversation takes a turn towards the spiritual as we venture into the realm of mystery religion and self-reliance. We ponder the role of spiritual guides and the delicate balance they must maintain between guidance and granting autonomy to the learner. Failure, though inevitable, can often be a stepping stone to personal growth.
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Welcome to Peg and Coffee Talk. Here are your hosts, Azuan and Lord Knight. Welcome to Season 3 of Peg and Coffee Talk.
Speaker 2:Season 3.
Speaker 1:I know it's crazy, isn't it? I Never would have thought it would have gone this far. Alright, so here's a little interesting topic that came up not too long ago the attitude of craft. This is pretty much the attitude that if you don't know the answer, we're not going to tell you.
Speaker 2:Exactly. Well, if you can't figure, it's the whole entire concept of if you can't figure it out, we're not going to help you. Okay, alright, that if you are meant to know it, you'll know it. You'll understand it.
Speaker 1:Okay. Is this also something that people look at us and they say well, that's gatekeeping, or you're being selfish with your knowledge?
Speaker 2:Right To a certain extent, we're looking at it as. We are looking at it as a test. Okay. Does this person have what it takes to figure this out?
Speaker 1:So, basically, we're going to give you a little bit of information, we're going to skirt around the issue Uh-huh, and we're going to leave it up to you to figure it out. And if you can't figure it out, then you just don't. Now again.
Speaker 2:I'm not going to say this is a good or a bad attitude in craft. I can see the advantages of it and I can see the disadvantages of it.
Speaker 1:Okay, what are advantages of having this attitude?
Speaker 2:Well, you're getting people to a certain extent, who have certain abilities to figure things out, to think about them logically, and it's sort of like an intelligence test.
Speaker 1:Okay, is that also a disadvantage?
Speaker 2:So a disadvantage, because you know there might be people out there that really would understand these concepts if we maybe gave a little bit more time or a little bit more of a push.
Speaker 1:Right, like some extra hints or something.
Speaker 2:Some extra hints or something.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:But then you still have this whole entire thing of it. If I give you the extra hints and stuff, are you really going to avoid that whole? Your path. I mean Are you going to? Be able to figure out how to get around with it without me having to give you extra hints later.
Speaker 1:I mean you might be able to fill it in enough to get over it. I mean, but you sort of say it Right.
Speaker 2:And you say again here's, your problem is, if I'm doing the work for you, how are you supposed to do it later?
Speaker 1:I can see that.
Speaker 2:You know, it's kind of like your parents doing your science project for you. The point there was not just to get the project done, but for you to learn something, and sometimes to learn things is better for you to fail to know what in the world to do better next time.
Speaker 1:It's like the old saying if at first you don't succeed, try and try again. But you also need to learn from your past failures.
Speaker 2:Right, but otherwise you're always going to fail. But I see a problem in our society now is we have a lot of people who will do it once and be like, oh well, oh well. True. And just give up? Are we losing people because we have this attitude, or we that might be good priests or priestesses, or are we going to chop ourselves in the leg by, you know, stopping this behavior?
Speaker 1:Right, I mean, we very well could be ending the bloodline, so to speak.
Speaker 2:I mean us sitting here talking about it, to get people to realize that some of the stuff that we do and the reason that sometimes we go short, is to give you a chance to flourish, to grow, to struggle, to.
Speaker 1:Right, and it's also a reason why we don't always produce answers on this little podcast thing that we're doing. True. When we leave things up in the air.
Speaker 2:It's literally hey we're wanting we're trying our best to encourage you to think, to do, to write down and go. Well, you know they were talking about this and here's my thoughts on it.
Speaker 1:Right, and of course I'll freely admit there's plenty of times when we leave those questions up in the air because I just don't have an answer. I will admit that I don't have an answer.
Speaker 2:I completely agree with you there. Sometimes we don't have an answer, we don't know.
Speaker 1:But that's not every time, and just be you know same thing with our students. They just need to be aware. This is why we do these things.
Speaker 2:So the question here is it wrong to allow, knowing people are going to fail, to allow them to fail?
Speaker 1:Well, I think so. I mean especially like in the case of our students.
Speaker 2:Or is it or is this a good way to actually help judge people's abilities and stuff by allowing this process?
Speaker 1:I think it's both. All right. So I think it's both because, as far as, like our students are concerned, the ones who come in for physical classes, when they come to us for things we I mean we're, we're here to help them learn.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And we know from experience that sometimes you have to fail in order to learn.
Speaker 2:I mean, and we give that, we give that whole Dungeon Master answer.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:On some things that vagues.
Speaker 1:Right. But here's the thing they always we never isolate ourselves from them, so they're always able to come to us and talk things out and try to put the pieces together for themselves, because even when they come to talk to us, we're not really giving them anything, we're just, we're like a sounding board. You know what I'm saying?
Speaker 2:You do hear. You do hear a lot of the answers for us on this is and how did that make you fail? And why do you think you? Felt that way, why did you pick that emotion over this emotion or this emotion? And I know a lot of our students and stuff will sit there and look at us going. Have y'all lost those minds?
Speaker 1:Right, but again, there's a purpose to it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean the more you're trying to get you to talk yourself through it and to see the logic, because I guess the way you explain this is there's a difference to us between knowing something and understanding something. Right. If you know it, you can use it. All right. If you know how to use a safe, you can use a stove or a microwave or a car. You don't necessarily have to know how it works to do this. Right. If you understand how it works, you can then start manipulating that device to your advantage.
Speaker 1:Right, we've briefly talked about that before.
Speaker 2:All right, where the idea is, is that, okay, I've done electronics and I've sat here and watched some YouTubers take old microwaves apart? And turn them in the guns. Right. I understand what they're doing and why it works and the whole nine yards. Right.
Speaker 2:It just makes me feel you know I'll get inside. But to me there's a difference, knowing that versus that person. That just was a microwave. What else are you going to do with it? Right, that's what we're wanting in craft. We want someone that can go that extra step to see how in the world they can manipulate this and themselves to their advantage, to help them grow spiritually. Right, right.
Speaker 2:Part of that is to me, is this process of allowing people to fail. Not that we're I don't want to say we purposely set people up to fail.
Speaker 1:Well, sometimes we might.
Speaker 2:No, I wouldn't even say we might. We will send you down a road where we realize that there is a chance of this failure or this going wrong, or that going wrong, knowing that there is this multitude of things that go wrong and we're sitting back going. So which ones are actually going to be?
Speaker 1:Yeah, but that's the time when we don't really have control over what's going to happen. That's up to that person, right? And how they handle the information, how they deal with the situation, exactly, that's all. So, you know, for us it's like sitting back and just watching it unfold.
Speaker 2:We're going to be sort of enjoying the slow motion car crash, the slow motion car crash.
Speaker 1:I love that.
Speaker 2:All right, I know everybody's going to be sitting back and kind of get a little bit mad. Don't misunderstand me. It's funny to us because I remember all the times I was in that place.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, and again, it's not like we're isolating ourselves from them.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:We're there to help them through this.
Speaker 2:We're just not there to do it for them.
Speaker 1:Right. We're there to give you all the answers. We're not there to do the work for you.
Speaker 2:I mean because our thought is, especially after you've become a first degree, you're an initiated which you have all the tools that you've needed. We've taught you how to meditate. We've taught you how to do all this stuff, stuff and you have the tools to solve your own problems.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Now, once you have those tools, you're expected to use them. You coming back to me going hey, I this up Right. You know I cast a spell and now this happened, and you know what do I do? Well, you start cleaning up your mess, right, you know, which involves you doing stuff that's not me.
Speaker 1:What do I do? What am I supposed to do? I don't know how about you research it? How about you meditate on it? Figure out what you need to do.
Speaker 2:What you need to do to put you in a better place, that you need to be Right, all right, because, again, the ultimate goal here is to train people not to need us. Not the fact that it's not a slide of no, we don't want you around us, we hate people, blah, blah, blah. It's that. No, I shouldn't have to fix your problems.
Speaker 1:No, I mean we'll be here for you. You're part of our family.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:But you shouldn't have to rely on me.
Speaker 2:No, and this is one of the. This is one of those techniques that we use to sometimes train people. I can see where some people would look at us and go well, that's mean, you know what if they don't understand it exactly like you? Well, we're asking for understanding the concept.
Speaker 1:Right and nobody's going to understand it exactly like us, because nobody's like us.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:I'm not like you. I don't understand things the same way you do.
Speaker 2:But we, we, we can sit back on certain concepts and go okay, there's enough of a base here on this and this that, if you get this right, you should be able to, I should be able to understand what you're saying even though I don't agree with you, right? And then you see how in the world you came to those conclusions that way, and vice versa, right? There's this nice thing about this process. So, again, not sure if it's a bad or a good thing, but Well, and does it backfire sometimes. Yes, oh, god yeah.
Speaker 1:Sometimes it's one of the worst decisions we've made and we wind up losing people.
Speaker 2:It happens. You know some people get upset and be this way. Ain't that part of it?
Speaker 1:though it is.
Speaker 2:You know, if you couldn't handle this part, how are you going to handle stuff?
Speaker 1:I mean, I specifically remember there was one time where a student got so upset about something that you were trying to teach him that he threatened us. Yeah, and then probably seven years later he comes back and he's like you know what? I was an ass.
Speaker 2:Yes, it happens, it happens. But again that process he went through. I think he understands that lesson better now than he did.
Speaker 1:I certainly hope so yeah.
Speaker 2:I certainly hope, so that you know not. We have a saying that sometimes good things happen to bad people, sometimes bad things happen to good people. Right, stuff happens. It's not a good or bad thing. It's not a karma thing. No, all right. Yes, there are times you could plan for the every contingency there ever is and then aliens land on your freaking back porch that you didn't plan for. It happens.
Speaker 1:Right, well, and then to you know, it's kind of like I don't want to really compare it to Christianity, but Christianity is a good example of stuff like that. There are a lot of really good Christians out there.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:A lot of goodhearted people. They're out to do their Lord's work there, you know, and they're doing what they feel they need to Right. Bad things happen to them all the time.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:They're going to say well, it's the Lord testing me, but they see it as a lesson that they need to learn.
Speaker 2:I mean, we sit here and talk, that we are here to learn stuff, right, and I'm sorry, learning stuff isn't always Sesame Street.
Speaker 1:No, and it's not always easy, it's not always fun.
Speaker 2:If sometimes you're not not down in the dirt, pick yourself up, get it, you gotta learn how to pick yourself up. That's yourself often. Keep going right. Sometimes these are things that we cannot directly teach you. You have to learn them yourself. But like I said, I also see we're in the world. Now we got more these, more people in the world that are like well, that's not fair.
Speaker 1:Well, no, it's not fair. Life isn't fair.
Speaker 2:Well, life's not fair.
Speaker 1:If life was fair, I wouldn't have to do what I'm doing for work.
Speaker 2:Well, let's think about it this way and here's my point if you can't handle the small stuff, and here you are supposed to be someone's Pete priest or priestess, right, you are their spiritual guide and you fall apart because somebody died in their family and you can no longer do that function. You're not helping. No, you're not doing anything. You've just completely failed this person. You promised you would help.
Speaker 1:Well, and you know, and with that, on that same line of thinking, there are times when we're human, sometimes we run out of juice. When that happens, don't agree to be there for somebody. If you know you ain't got the juice to handle it, you need to go fill it back up and then get back on the horse and get back out there with that person that you Said you were gonna help.
Speaker 2:I mean, there are social groups here, there are Expectations mm-hmm here and I'm sorry. When you're a priest or a priestess, yes, it is expected that when your people call you for you to, you're gonna be there. You're gonna pick up the phone, right, and it's not gonna be two months later, three months later. You're going to as soon as they call hey, I'm here, what you need right.
Speaker 1:I mean, that is the expectation, that's our expectation, when you become a priest.
Speaker 2:And I don't know how to get people there without using this style of teaching at some point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, this is not something we do all the time what not? But it does happen that we throw things in there along this line and no, no again.
Speaker 2:like I said, I could see where people were doing this and people see us as being arrogant, right, you know, because I've sat there, I've done that, where I'm talking to someone outside of temple and they're Proving the edges of a mystery mm-hmm. And I have sat there and watched them. You you've to know, get like mad as I'll cause. They know I know something. Yeah, you can tell I'm not the best bluffer.
Speaker 1:No, you're not.
Speaker 2:All right, I'd lose a poker at a heart base.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you'd be terrible at poker, All right and they're like well, you know the answer.
Speaker 2:Why don't you just tell me, because I can? Because if you don't find it yourself, how in the world are you gonna hold it like I do? Right right. You know, I can understand where some people would see this as a gatekeeping and stuff like that, but to me it's not. It's it's it's by having to go through that process, by having to do that. This Little nugget of information I have, even though it might be just a nugget right is so much more precious to me for that.
Speaker 1:Well it's. It's one of those things where, we've said it before, this is a mystery religion. Yes, it is, and we have two types of general mysteries. There's the kind that we can tell you our traditional mysteries right. And then there there are those that you need to discover. You don't have to, but you need to discover on your own. Right if we told you what it was.
Speaker 2:It wouldn't mean anything to you like the whole initiation thing, the the big mystery behind it is going through that process Right in its entirety. The whole entire thing changes you in a way you don't understand, just by going through it.
Speaker 1:Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2:All right it Lord. Men used to talk about this religion, colt, whatever temple back in Egypt, I'm not sure. Maybe the Greeks or somebody wrote about it, but these people would like spend years of study and, on the initiative, on the day of the initiation, they would put them in a room and then they would place something in their hands and they were told to open their hands slowly, and it would just be a seed for grain, and then these people would break down a short crying on the spot because everything that they've endured, for all them, you're just clicks in the place right.
Speaker 2:It makes sense what in the world they were trying to tell them right and now again.
Speaker 1:What's just telling you? That means nothing. Exactly you because you've not been through that experience. Exactly it means something to me because I had a similar experience when I got my first degree initiation and it it just blew my mind, thank you, and I can still hold on to that, and I do, I still hold on to that, like it's, you know. How do you?
Speaker 2:teach that you can't, you know you can't and and again, understand if your elders are doing this to you, okay, ten times out of ten, more than likely, it's the same that it is mistakes that your elders have made right and they're trying to keep you from making their mistakes. So, understand, there's this to it. We're trying to stop you from doing what we.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, and then somebody's gonna say well then, why are you throwing me into that situation? Well, that will help you remember this situation we're not doing it to make you make the same mistakes. We're doing it. We're doing it to kind of help you walk through that situation without making all of those mistakes exactly. You're gonna make some, but we're trying to make sure you you have the knowledge and you have the willpower to change it so that you're not making all those mistakes.
Speaker 2:And again, just like you've said before, experience is wisdom. Yes, it is. That's how we gain it All right at some point in craft. And you can do all the study, insist, just like we. You can do all the Meditations, and I, until the river meets the road. You're not going nowhere. No I. Mean reading books and all that. That's great, but until you start doing and still you're start doing these rituals, until you're Celebrating the gods, until you're actually doing those things on a regular basis. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:There's a whole world out there. Right and trust me, the gods will teach you all freaking day long.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, oh yeah. Once you start doing yeah, you're gonna start learning a lot.
Speaker 2:All right, and you're gonna make mistakes. Yeah you're gonna set your priestess priest or priestess's sleeve on fire?
Speaker 1:probably More than once.
Speaker 2:All right, you're gonna knock the chalice over, you're going to you might sit your own sleeves on fire.
Speaker 1:I mean just it's gonna happen.
Speaker 2:Yes, you're gonna have that student that's going to sit there and face the setting sun and go hell. Spirits of the east Right.
Speaker 1:It's like um excuse me.
Speaker 2:What, what Um it happens you?
Speaker 1:know, just learn from it so you don't have to do it again.
Speaker 2:Unless you think we're completely wrong for using this style or this actually having this thought so I think that's all I got to say about it.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening. Join us next week for another episode. Peg and Coffee Talk is brought to you by Lifetime and Seminary. Please visit us at lifetimepleseminaryorg for more information, as well as links to our social media Facebook, Discord, Twitter, YouTube and Reddit.
