Join us as we illuminate the intertwining of witchcraft laws and life's moral compass. We discuss the importance of balance, harmony, and personal responsibility and how they can impact your daily interactions and spiritual journey. We also briefly discuss the seven tenets of the craft and their vital role beyond the realm of the mystical, offering guidance on fostering dignified relationships and creating environments free from manipulation.
Concluding our journey, we share stories of resilience and change, we encourage embracing a survivor's outlook, learning from missteps, and the courage to uphold one's values. Grab your coffee as we both celebrate the bravery required in sculpting a genuine identity and walking the path of continuous learning.
Join us on
Discord: https://discord.gg/MdcMwqUjPZ
Facebook: (7) Life Temple and Seminary | Facebook
Join us as we illuminate the intertwining of witchcraft laws and life's moral compass. We discuss the importance of balance, harmony, and personal responsibility and how they can impact your daily interactions and spiritual journey. We also briefly discuss the seven tenets of the craft and their vital role beyond the realm of the mystical, offering guidance on fostering dignified relationships and creating environments free from manipulation.
Concluding our journey, we share stories of resilience and change, we encourage embracing a survivor's outlook, learning from missteps, and the courage to uphold one's values. Grab your coffee as we both celebrate the bravery required in sculpting a genuine identity and walking the path of continuous learning.
Join us on
Discord: https://discord.gg/MdcMwqUjPZ
Facebook: (7) Life Temple and Seminary | Facebook
predominant power In Jesus' name In his mouth". Welcome to Peg and Coffee Talk. Here's your host, lord Knight, with special guest Lady Maya.
Speaker 2:Tell us about the ethics of Ravenwood. What do y'all teach? And as far as ethics go, ethics.
Speaker 3:Well, from an ethical standpoint. Everyone is heard of craft law. There are several sets of craft law that have been passed down through many different traditions. There are sets of craft laws that have been compiled from all those traditions and approved by several, by many elders. So we, from a Neovite's perspective, use one of those sets Lady Gladiatorial's new book of the law to teach initial craft law.
Speaker 3:Right, the interpretation of laws is something that we helped them out with. But on top of that we teach something called the tenets. So the seven tenets of balance, harmony, reincarnation, trust, humility, tolerance and learning, All right. So we teach those seven tenets and that provides a pathway for exploration of our world. And those are the inner pieces that we use to say am I in alignment? I mean any problem you have in the world, in your life, you can go back to those tenets and find exactly which one you need to work on. So, between craft law and the tenets, and then the level of respect and dignity we expect people to uphold in their own lives, that's kind of where we get into ethics. Now there's a big difference between a law and a read. Let's talk about that for a minute.
Speaker 2:Oh, let's do.
Speaker 3:Yes, because a law, a law, craft law is based in natural law.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:A read is actually advice. A read is not law.
Speaker 2:No, it's not.
Speaker 3:So when you start talking about the wicked read, it is advice, it is not a law. So when you start talking about an harmony, none we know this is something to try to attain, but there's always black and white. There's always white within black. It's not something that's fully attainable. It is something we strive for. No one is perfect and that you know. It's a great place for people to start.
Speaker 2:Yes, it is.
Speaker 3:About the responsibility of their actions and take responsibility for their actions. But any harm done also includes the self says. A lot of introspection that comes into that.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:And as you progress through craft, there are other sets of laws that come into play. But another whole set of laws at first, just another whole set of laws at third. Yes, for our tradition.
Speaker 2:Open Yowls. Yes, yeah, there's some things we learn differently than yowls, so yes, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:But there's also, you know within, how we go about by day in our regular lives and how we go about by night, should I say, in our craft life. Those things will eventually come into alignment. I mean, you can't go out and do this stuff in the daytime and then do this stuff at night and say, oh I'm, this is none, no, no, no, no, you can get bit bit hard. But what's interesting, though, is, over time, through the act of practicing and becoming who and what we are within craft, that alignment really is interesting because it shows up in your business world. Yes, it shows up in how you're dealing with responsibility and actions and how you handle your business world, and everything in your life turns into a mirror. Yes, so if you've got somebody who's disrespecting you, right, right, first thing you do is after yourself Well, who am I disrespecting Exactly? And it fixes the old. You know, it's really interesting, and it may be someone at work, maybe somebody, maybe a neighbor. I mean, it's really interesting how it all balances out and works around it.
Speaker 3:But from an ethics perspective, there are certain things that we, you know, we expect people to work on their stuff. We expect people to be treated with respect and dignity. We expect people to mind their boundaries and set boundaries appropriately and manage their personal lives in a dignified way. And you know, one of the things that I've always said with running a group is I always want to provide a safe, secure place to worship, meaning that you are a dignified individual and I'm not here to joke you, insult you, lead your life, control you. Nothing and no one else in the group should be that way either. People need to grow in parallel, not bound together.
Speaker 3:No, people need to learn to stand up on their own before they can help somebody else, but if your life lessons, if your life lessons are coming from your interactions with your COVID members, you got a problem, because then your group energy is all messed up, because they should be individuals being able to stand on their own two feet and not having some huge Less than about codependency and control issues happening within the Covenant self. That's not a good thing, and trying to manage that safe, secure place has been very interesting.
Speaker 2:So y'all are very y'all, just like us. Y'all are very keen on the whole entire keeping your word and accepted responsibilities for your actions.
Speaker 3:Yes, very much so.
Speaker 2:I've always found it surprising as we start to teach people this stuff. They seem to think this only applies inside of Temple. They never seem to realize how it moves outside of that into your normal day.
Speaker 3:But if they haven't, but if they haven't assimilated it across all of their worlds, they'll fail at Temple too.
Speaker 2:I can see that. I saw it in my life as I went along, where I started to use those ethics and morals to shake how I did business and how I did my job and interacting with other people. I do find it very fascinating.
Speaker 3:The thing that even gets more fascinating about trying to do that is maintaining your boundaries, because they're not dealing with this, they're not living under the same rules you are. No, you can't let their stuff cross your boundaries either. It's interesting, it's very interesting.
Speaker 2:I mean, I've had a lot of problems because we're a real believer in keeping your word and dealing with contractors and stuff like that. When they don't show up and stuff like that, you're sitting back going. You know, is my moral getting in the way of me getting something actually done, or?
Speaker 3:And why doesn't that bother you that you broke your word? Why doesn't that bother you? And if you're not going to do it, communicate. Communication goes in a long way, and communication in such a way that is not abusive. Showing up authentically is what you really need.
Speaker 2:Right, I don't need anything else. Keep your word, keep going. You know I get all upset when something happens and I can't keep my word. I'll drive him up the wall going. Wait a minute. No, no, no, this, no, we got to be.
Speaker 3:Well, one of the things that goes back to this ethics thing and Lady Santana's vision of adding respect and dignity into the craft is managing how you show up as a practitioner of the faith. We live within a country. There are laws of the land and there are general cultural norms that can either bring respect or bring disrespect very carefully. So we are very careful about how we present ourselves in the greater world. We're very careful about how we go about making changes in our world. You know, lady knew how to use the media because she was entertainment and with the way she looks she was good at it.
Speaker 3:There are many times there were the Atlantic public news where they had something come up that the five o'clock news would use her as the daily lead and watch the TV during the day. You know the news. You know five blah, blah, blah, blah blah. I remember one where they were coming over to talk about some battles that we had when we were over in Decatur and she's like, coming up at five, there's witches in Atlanta and she's standing in front of the altar. Yes, there's witches in Atlanta. Yes, we are here.
Speaker 3:I don't remember the exact phrase but it was really good, but it was in presentation. That was a shock value thing, that was an affirmative thing. I said, yes, we're here, but I'm presenting myself in such a way that it looked like everybody else. Yes, right, people are shocked of how I dress. When I'm in public as a witch, I'm in a white linen button down shirt, a single necklace and a pair of khaki pants or some shorts, I don't. You know, I don't present myself, as you know, in Dora, running around and sometimes that person can be helpful with what you're trying to do if you want that out there. But sometimes it can hurt you as well, because you have to be approachable as a leader. Yes, right, but the other one can kind of keep you not as approachable, which kind of helps distance too much crazy from you, because there's crazy out there.
Speaker 2:Oh, I had a lot of crazy everywhere. They got so crazy in the mirror this morning. I mean there's a from when I first got into now there's just been. So seems like such a big change in craft and our well in the Payton community at large not necessarily in craft compared to when we first came up.
Speaker 3:What change are you talking about?
Speaker 2:There seems to be more free willing in the Payton community at large, everybody's. Just I still don't understand this whole manifest destiny thing and how it actually, how they think it actually works, and stuff like this. You know, you're just seeing some ideas that seemed a little bit more far fetch than what I was brought up to believe.
Speaker 3:Well, you brought more on a traditional bent, but the way things are structured now with. To me, the way things are structured now is social media and the books and all that's out there for quote unquote resources A lot of it is. It feeds the ego, it feeds the identity and the minute you start getting into this, I am, you know, I am this and I'm a this and I'm a that, and look at me, go and it's. It's. It's subtle, it's very subtle. It actually shuts down the spiritual growth aspect of it. Much of what's being taught is more mechanics. It's about yeah.
Speaker 3:You know, here's all the side, what I call the side dishes. You know the definition, the magic, the whatever. You know all the side dishes. And then there's the root of the faith and people are shocked that there actually is a faith behind there. This says there's a God and there's a goddess, and this is how they interact and this is how we deal with the elements and spirit. You know people say, well, you know, I had somebody asking one time well, what do you think about quantum physics? And I was like well, it's a great study. They're like well, how are you bringing it into craft? I'm like I'm not. Where does the boast and hits go in my circle? It doesn't. Where do these pieces and particles and how they interact go into that four element and spirit circle? They don't. The concepts may be in parallel, but it doesn't necessarily translate. But there's a lot of things out there. I'm sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 2:No, I was just going to say I find it easier to use sometimes quantum physics, especially on the podcast, because I don't reveal mysteries Again parallel. I know they're not the same or anything, but sometimes using that allows me to, I think, explain what's going on without giving away any mysteries.
Speaker 3:But you can use metaphysical stuff too. I mean, you can use metaphysical theory to do that, you can talk about elemental theory to that, and all that stuff is available from places outside of craft and we teach that. So I can very easily start talking about the divine mind, the higher mind, universal mind and the linkage between the subconscious and the conscious mind and this, that, that, blah, blah, blah. And I can talk about the interactions between the elements and the this and the that. That all makes sense.
Speaker 3:But I think that back to our original piece is you were saying that it's very different now. Very free will, very open. We've told people do as you will. Yes, we've published that for not we, but it's been published for decades. Do what you will, shall be the whole of the law, yes. And then people are empowered and they feel filled with spirit and they want to express, and then their expression grabs other people and gets them filled with spirit. But the person that started expressing it suddenly feels like oh well, you know, I'm just. It feeds their ego, which stops their growth, which stops them from harming other people's spiritual growth.
Speaker 2:I like that. I mean it makes perfect sense.
Speaker 3:I know of a lot of people that have gotten their third degrees. Gotten their third degree and the universe spins them out and says, nope, you're not going to hurt students, you're not going to hurt people. You will intentionally do it, but the energy's not in alignment. They have to learn and grow more before they can actually try to teach others.
Speaker 2:Yes, excuse me, I mean it's very hard to push yourself sometimes through this, to keep on learning, to keep on growing, to keep on questioning.
Speaker 3:Oh, I don't know, that's a third degree. If you're not getting hit in the head with a 2 by 4 every day, you're not doing your job.
Speaker 2:One 2 by 4?.
Speaker 3:Yes, one. Yeah, we're going to whack a day, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah that was a very positive statement. Sometimes you feel like you're being played by a whack-a-mole.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean. It's a journey, it's a quest, it's a daily, it's not a role you put on and take off. At the end of the day, it's you, live it, you breathe it, you are it and it is you.
Speaker 2:Yes, and I'm sorry. You're not going to gain enlightenment or wisdom by sitting in your mom's basement playing video games all day.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:You got to get out, you got to experience, yeah, so I mean, that's the main way we gain wisdom.
Speaker 3:I will say this I can remember back in mid-late 90s I don't know if I knew, even knew you at that point I can remember mid-late 90s. There were a lot of people that were looking for teachers and because they were in outlying areas they had problems finding teachers.
Speaker 3:So they were growing things grassroots on their own, which is what they had to do to do what they wanted to do to practice which you know that that was an interesting thing in itself, but I think that with the expanded communication and the linkages and the ability to find people online and talk to people and communicate via social media and via the internet, I think it has helped a lot of people to find their teacher. I think that's been a good thing, whichever teacher that needs to be, I mean.
Speaker 2:I hate to be this one. We've gotten communications from people all the way down in Georgia wanting to take classes with us. Now, the majority of the times when they do that I'm like why don't you just go to Ravenwood? But uh, yeah, why drop all the way up here, just go to Atlanta. But I mean it does help. I mean we have gotten interest in people farther away than what we used to back in the 90s and stuff like that, where it was just local people, Right. So I mean that has.
Speaker 3:We've got groups in California. We've got the initiates in Albuquerque, We've got one of our groups just moved up to like the commerce area, commerce Georgia, to move closer to Athens Georgia. And then we've got two here in North Atlanta. There's a lineage group in DeLonica, there's a lineage group in Decatur. I know there's other ones. Who am I leaving out?
Speaker 2:I gotta ask this question, which y'all are, much bigger group than us how do y'all deal with kids and parents and inside of Okay, this is an interesting one, and this isn't a group by group basis, because Lady Centana had children.
Speaker 3:Lady Centana was a mother, she allowed families and, first off, we won't teach anybody under 18. That's not happening, right, okay. But if you're a family and you had kids, she would allow the kids to come, as long as they're well behaved and the parents kept them under control. Because if the parents didn't keep them under control, trust me, there were 50 other witches that would, and the kids would learn real quick to behave in certain ways. Pessoa taakau nian ni onhaul oda alta g portfolio, his mother, I think he showed up at Ravenwood as a 14 year old with his mom. He was raised in the breath. That's my high priest. Okay, he was around in the early days, but he was very young, he wasn't of age. But we leave it up to the individual high priest this isn't high priests of the groups to decide whether or not they're going to bring in children or not or do a children's ministry. Personally, I don't have kids. I was never trained to train children in this. I don't want somebody else's kid be in my guinea pig.
Speaker 1:That's not fair, that's not smart, okay, and then I'm very responsible.
Speaker 3:However, there are other group leaders that do feel like children are fine there, and that's fine. I support that as well. Okay, there's room for that within the tradition. It's just me personally. I don't have any training in that and I don't want to mess something up.
Speaker 2:I understand what you're saying. It's a little different when you're dealing with kids compared to adults, but it's nice to say now, do you personally allow people? Do you still state that same stance if a member comes in with their kid? No, because I don't want to do it with kids.
Speaker 3:No, I don't want to do it with kids. Now, if we have a picnic or something, sure, right, but as far as rituals and stuff, no, I don't allow kids in because it's not something, like I said, that I'm trained to deal with throughout the evening. I have had kids that are quote unquote 16, 17, 18 with their mother. I have had that Okay, but young children I don't.
Speaker 2:You don't.
Speaker 3:Okay and there's a place and a time for kids within ritual. There's like sabbets and grand meetings and things. Yeah, that's perfectly appropriate, but day-to-day basis for sabbets and moons and stuff for us it doesn't make sense and, like I said, I don't have any training in ministering to children.
Speaker 2:Okay, so now we've talked about kids down there and Ravenwood, because I mean, my fear is that in the pagan community, from what I've been seeing here lately is it's kind of like they don't know traditions like ours still exist, that the traditional initiated groups. I think the impression that they think we disappeared.
Speaker 3:I think they've heard of it, they've read about it, definitely because it is in the books, but I think they get the sniff of it and the sniff that they get is damn traditionalists. So they know we exist. But I think when they're presented that way, we seem a little hairy, scary, which is why when I present myself, I present myself as not. You would not. You'd see me in the store and you wouldn't think anything about it, because it's just a part of my life. It's not an outfit that I put on on Saturday night to run around and look a certain way around certain people to get their attention, because that whole persona of let me dress a certain way to show you how witchy I am, that feeds the ego. It's not approachable and it's. It's oh how powerful I am. I have this, that, and look at the things that I have, the things that was behind me, and not the spiritual inner piece of it.
Speaker 2:It's the same shot, content with all the bumper stickers on the back. Yeah, my, my, my other cars of broom and all this other stuff, yeah, yeah. So I've never understood that either. That is definitely something in the traditional community. I think we're sort of beat out of us.
Speaker 3:I don't know that it was beaten out of us. It was just never seen as something that fed our spirit. I mean it's interesting because when people first start coming into craft, the first thing they do is bash where they came from. Yeah, whatever face that was, they bash where they came from as a way of negating and learning their own stuff. So the first thing you've got to do is get them out of bashing mode right, and sometimes bashing mode includes dressing a certain way. Think about it when you were a teenager and you wanted to shock your parents, what would you do? You listened. Or, years ago, you would listen to louder music, louder, louder, metal music, whatever, or something Uh-huh you could put in with them. My mother listened to little Richard in the 50s, drove my opera singer of grandfather nuts. I listened, yeah, because I was in the middle you know.
Speaker 3:My mom was like okay. My dad was like, oh yeah, great, what's that band? My mom was like I can't stand that stuff. But there's also dressing differently and being more provocative. Is it in your teen years to start showing your independence? That's part of that, that independent growing up experience in the late 20s, late teens, early 20s to set yourself separate from your appearance. Well, it's the same thing in craft, because you start breaking away from that which you were raised in, whether whatever faith you had, it attuned to, and now you have to negate that, be it word or deed or action or outfit, shoes, hair, jewelry, whatever and shock everybody into this is who I am now to help prove that point. It's the same thing. It's the same thing. Think about teenagers. Teenagers are going to try your patience as they go through and figure out their independence and define themselves, which takes years to do. It's the same thing when you convert over to a faith. This is what this is. This actually is. It's active conversion.
Speaker 2:It's really the same thing when they learned it as a child, because I see the same things as you do as adults, sort of like going through their childhood again as they're changing faith. I find it actually interesting.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because it's a redefinition and a freeing up of old. It's making more space for something else to come in, as they free themselves up from something that they no longer want to do, and that process can take place whenever you try to make changes internally. We were talking earlier about how people in classes start getting new perspectives. It's the same process on the smaller level and sometimes it's a bigger level, but depending on what it is you're processing through.
Speaker 2:Now I have heard some people and they're wanting to introduce a slight concept. I haven't heard too much about the sort of like socialism, spirituality, where we all need to be on the same running line. No, that's not how it works. I don't understand where in the world how do you straighten everybody out to get them all on the same line? Anyway, that's impossible.
Speaker 3:That's called control and conformity. And drinking Kool-Aid it's a cult. That's cult, it's cultism.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I think that cult.
Speaker 2:The fact that this is starting to come up in the community bothers me a little bit, that these people are starting to think this way.
Speaker 3:Well, yeah, I think there's a lot of concepts in our normal society right now that are harmful, and that's one of them that I think is harmful. And if it propagates over to craft, it's not craft, it would never be accepted as craft, because we're individuals and we have freedom as a baseline of who and what we are being. Craft means you are free, yes, and losing the sight of that means you are not free. And if that's what they want to promote and they want to have their own little cult control thing until that starts going bad, go for it. But, like I said, people are going to be. People are going to be where they need to be and learn from that. Is that cultism, socialism, communism, craft point of view going to change what I do?
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 3:Am I still going to be there? A beacon for eyes that can see, yes.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's interesting how in the world I see people fooling themselves and I sit back and going. I know enough to know what I don't know and I'm an idiot. I don't understand why other people can't see the same thing.
Speaker 3:That's humility, Because if you sit there and say, yeah, I have here's my armor, and if there's a chink in my armor, oh my gosh, there's a fear factor of somebody having a chink in their armor. I can tell you how many times I said you know what I was wrong. I completely got this wrong.
Speaker 3:I was wrong, I've learned from it and I apologize. That's a big deal. I mean, I'm human, but when you have your armor so built up and you're so afraid to have a chink in the armor and let something break through to find that you are an infallible being underneath there, that's problem, that's ego and that's not humility.
Speaker 2:Now to discuss. When we do get stuff wrong, we admit it, but at the same time, when do we not give up the ghost, when do we not cross that line?
Speaker 3:I don't think it's an all or nothing thing. I think there's a valid either. There's a valid piece that says, within any situation, you own part of it, as do others, and validly looking at that and taking ownership for your stuff and not taking ownership for other people's thing is an act of discernment. It is true, queen of swords in the tarot. It is discernment and taking responsibility for your stuff is the important part. Not taking responsibility for someone else's stuff is just important. That's authenticity. That is authenticity.
Speaker 2:I completely agree with you 100%. It amazes me how many people will give up their values when challenged just a little versus other people who've got no, no, this is the value I have. I want to stick with this. It works for me. You can't change it, no matter what.
Speaker 3:You mean like if you're in a situation with another person, they'll give up their values to keep the person around. Yes, that's, that's okay, that is that drives me Now that comes from fear of rejection, that comes from abandonment issues and fear of rejection. You think so? Oh yeah, because you think about it. If you and I got into a fight right and we have honestly years ago- yes, we have, we have.
Speaker 2:I can go for a bit.
Speaker 3:If me you ever agree on everything the world will employ, I'm telling you, we get into a fight and the emotions get involved, right, and I am concerned and afraid of abandonment and afraid of rejection from you. I am going to change my values because it is more meaningful me to keep someone in my life, even though they're abusive or even though I'm putting energy out. This is all shadow, chef. This is all shadows. This is all. This is all I'm. If I'm afraid and I don't see my, my self worth is high enough to stand my ground and let the chips fall, Because it's more important to me to have these attachments around me that feed me in some way, allow me to be a victim. Which is or not victims period? No, which is or not victims?
Speaker 3:No they're not. I am tired of victim. Victim, oh so no. Yes, Something crappy happened. Become a survivor, move past it and quit holding like a sign around your neck.
Speaker 2:It doesn't help.
Speaker 3:I'm tired of everybody being so offended. I'm not here. I'm not here to be unkind, for no reason, but I'm allowed to be me, just as much as you are allowed to be you and I will more than happily let you be you and you more and happy let me be me.
Speaker 2:I'm loving the fact that you keep on the demonstrating how, in the world which is, fix their own problems, because we are the source of our own problems. Heal by self which it is a wonderful thing to have and to realize okay, no matter what the problem is, I can fix it.
Speaker 3:I just got to do the work or take the time or take the responsibility and take the hit and learn from it, move past it, heal.
Speaker 2:I can't tell you how many bosses loved me because I'd walk in with a machine going hey, I just broke this, how the hell do I fix it? And they would all be like oh well, here's how we keep you from doing that again there you go.
Speaker 3:There you go, problem fixed. It's the same thing in craft, though, because sometimes you make decisions about clubbing direction or gosh I've done one or two botched rituals in my life and when you have to go back and look, okay, what went wrong, what did I do wrong, what should I never do again, what should I try to do again? What, what kind of worked but seemed interesting, and what's that? You know you have to go through that in every situation in your life, but you have to take responsibility for what you did.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 3:And not look people. People do not get up in the morning every morning and go. How can I scrunch it up today? No, they don't. It's just through their normal actions and their normal thoughts and their normal conscious mind that something goes awry all the time, and we're here to learn and fix that. No one is is out to get me.
Speaker 2:No, maybe nobody's out to get me and nobody's out to get you, Sort of.
Speaker 3:but but that's been times there have been people out to get me with the way. It's all right.
Speaker 2:You know, but I'm not going to sit here and worry about it every single day.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:And there's no reason to fear.
Speaker 3:Don't feed the fear.
Speaker 2:You know I yes, I'm gay and I live in a very small town. I have no fear of going out in public on a day. I don't see how people can live like that, that they're scared that they're going to depends on where you are and what is going to be mean to them just because, we're out in public but it depends on where you live in the world to true you know.
Speaker 3:You know being being different in the Bible about has become easier over time.
Speaker 3:Yes whether it's from a religious standpoint, a sexuality standpoint. Outliers of conformity have either been leaders or and set new precedent and move towards something different and change makers, or they have been chunned, and it depends on what you're doing and really the energy behind you to think about it. I mean, those ones that are leaders and change makers really are not doing it. They're doing it from place to the heart, right. The ones that are that are shunned it ended up in the gutter are the ones that are, you know, with the ego.
Speaker 2:So back to that ego. That ego is the death of all of us.
Speaker 3:But it's not ego, like you think you get his to go though ego. No, it's. It's. It's the definition and protection of your identity. That is where your ego comes in. It's not, yes, it's making it about you. And as a craft leader, it is never about you as a third degree, you don't exist. You do not exist. You are a conduit. That is it. That's it. Everybody thinks this pyramid is oh, the leaders are at the top and it's all about the leaders. It's upside down, it's all about the students.
Speaker 2:I have to admit there are the teachers provide the teaching.
Speaker 3:That's all I mean that's it.
Speaker 2:I mean. There's a lot of times I've said why did I do this? It was easier at second.
Speaker 3:I went to see Lady Santana one time when she was in North Carolina. I stayed over night. The next morning we were having coffee and we were talking about some different stuff and I said, can't, I, can't I just start all over and put another white cord on? She's like absolutely not, why not? She's like my dear, no, my dear, no, you need to keep going. But, lady, it's so much easier as any of us. Lady Maya, no.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry. We sit there, we tell people once you go through this, we cannot put the genie back in the bottom. There's no way to go back. There's nothing. No, it's done.
Speaker 3:Which is why you are challenged like you were at the gate at first degree.
Speaker 2:Yep.
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