Pagan Coffee Talk
We will discuss topics related to the Pagan community. All views are from a traditionalist's point of view. The conversations are unscripted (no preparations have been made ahead of time). A special thanks to Darkest Era for the use of their songs: Intro- The Morrigan, Exit - Poem to the Gael. Check them out at http://darkestera.net/.
Pagan Coffee Talk
Challenging Authoritarianism in Paganism
Can Wicca's two equal deities, once celebrated as revolutionary, make room for nonbinary believers? (msn.com)
Do you ever feel like society’s perception of gender is being imposed on your spiritual beliefs? We certainly do, and that’s what we’re dissecting in our latest podcast episode. We go toe-to-toe with prevalent misconceptions about gender, beliefs and inclusion within Paganism and Witchcraft. We take a hard look at the dynamics that exist within Wicca, particularly the celebration of the masculine and feminine union, and the flawed notion that introducing the Goddess was groundbreaking. We're challenging the status quo, addressing misconceived exclusion within our community, and voicing our resistance against the authoritarian sections of the pagan community trying to dictate our beliefs.
Moving beyond Wicca, we throw ourselves headfirst into an engaging conversation about the importance of inclusivity in spirituality while respecting each other's beliefs and practices. We strongly assert that traditional witchcraft is not some bygone relic, but remains relevant and thriving, reaffirming your right to practice your craft as you wish. As we navigate the intricate discussion of transgenderism within the context of nature and its alignment with the craft, we underline the importance of personal beliefs and individualism. So, join us in this eye-opening dialogue, as we traverse the intersections of belief, spirituality, and identity. You're promised a fresh perspective on gender, spirituality, and inclusion.
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Music. Welcome to Peg and Coffee Talk. Here are your hosts, azwan and Lord Knight. Today we found this article and it was entitled Can Wicca's Two Equal Deities, once Celebrated as Revolutionary, make Room for Non-Binary Believers? It was an interesting article. Well, it was. There were a couple of points that we don't agree with. Let's start with the ones we do agree with. Basically, they were saying that in Wicca, we celebrate the union of the masculine and the feminine, which we do, priest and priestesses, god and Goddess, earth-based traditions, the fact that we believe that deity does not have a gender, but that we perceive them as such because it's the way we understand them.
Speaker 3:Yes, they are a reflection of us. Because we are gendered, we perceive them as gendered Right, and that deity itself is actually nothing more than energy or thought that does not have a body like me and you, so it doesn't have a gender. It doesn't have to worry about such things.
Speaker 1:Right, And then we come to the place in the article where things start getting interesting. So they've interviewed this guy named Steve Kinson. He's the co-founder of the Temple of Witchcraft in New. Hampshire. He calls the introduction of the Goddess into pagan worship revolutionary. I don't know if I agree with that. I think it's always been God and Goddess.
Speaker 3:Well, I mean, even in the Catholic faith. At one point, Mary the Mother was actually referred to as the Queen of Heaven. Right. So, again, this is not some foreign concept completely out there that there is a feminine to the masculine Right. So this idea even translates to multiple religions, not only ours but others.
Speaker 1:Right. And then he goes on to say you know that because of this, this new revolutionary idea of introducing the Goddess into pagan practice, you know he does say that it drew a lot of people to the craft, especially feminists. Yeah, because you know it was an opportunity for them to deify the feminine, true, right. He does say that the male-female binary reflects the theological importance of polarity. So you've got the balance of two different sides, exactly. So. Now the article states that because of this the two sexes, the binary positions, the polarities they're saying that those of us in the gay community are starting to feel, or have felt, like we were being erased. I don't see that, but, right, i don't either. But that you know. They're saying that they've been feeling like they were being excluded.
Speaker 3:Well see, that's not exactly true, because always, even in Wicca and in Kraft too, homosexualities been seen in nature. You have the gay penguins, you know, I've seen a video with two gay lions, and so forth and so on. So this is behavior that extends throughout nature. What doesn't, is this transgender idea.
Speaker 1:Well, and that's where this article is going, it's the whole gender ideology that's been going around.
Speaker 3:Well, my problem is is right here they're trying to lump us in with the transgender thing.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:And that's not what's going on here. No, it's not.
Speaker 1:They're talking.
Speaker 3:This article is really just about transgender. It's not about gays and lesbians and bisexuals, All right. So there's sort of this misgiving here and they're sort of lying to you. Gay and lesbians always been accepted because it's part of nature. It's the transgenderism some of us have a problem with because it's not nature, It's not something we find in nature. It goes against the actual flow of nature.
Speaker 1:Right, i mean, they are talking about. The words that they use are gendered assumptions, and my whole thing here is, like you, this has nothing to do with the craft. No, your identity politics has nothing to do with the craft.
Speaker 3:And again and I will go ahead and say this all right, because we need to if this is the way you want to believe, if this is the way you want to worship, that's your business. Oh, absolutely, when you start forcing it down my throat, i have a problem.
Speaker 1:We've said it before and I'll say it again Our only animosity toward Christianity, or toward any other religion or philosophy of life, is to the extent that its institutions have claimed to be the only way and have sought to deny freedom to others and to suppress other ways of religious practice and belief.
Speaker 3:Again, we're holding to this principle. You can believe this, but when you start trying to tell me I have to, i have a problem. Right, these people have a superiority complex. They think they're superior to everyone and that they can tell us what in the world to believe. You can't stop. I mean, i know it goes on, father, in that article, saying that you know they think people like us are dying off. We're not, we're just being quiet. We stepped away from the limelight, we just quit talking to y'all.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:Because our elders saw this crap coming. They thought it was going to die off, but it didn't.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:But again they have become this authoritarian sect of the pagan community that think they can tell us what in the world we should and should not believe.
Speaker 1:Right. I mean, just because they've adapted to this thought process or this ideology that's going around now doesn't mean that the rest of us have to know, and that's great that this is working for them and that they've been able to adopt, you know, ritual and other processes, magic, whatever to meet their needs. And if it works for them, that's fine.
Speaker 3:There are honest beliefs that we have. It is considered to be beneath the station of someone who guards the pathish way of life to kill anything. Right, it's below their station. This is a fundamental belief that we have that women shouldn't have to kill, not because they can't, but because it's below their station in life. They are above this type of thing, and you want me to change this part of my belief system because you don't want to believe there's such thing as gender or boys and girls. I mean, let's be honest, right, we say we follow nature. Well, that means that we have to follow biology. Biology says there's only male and female. Sorry, yes, we have intersex, but intersex is where it's gone wrong.
Speaker 1:Well, in intersex it's rare.
Speaker 3:Well, it's rare, but it's when it's gone wrong. It's the same thing like being born blind or deaf or with Down syndrome. It's where the process had a hiccup. It happens. It's not a another gender, right, you know? I mean, don't get me wrong, i have sympathy for these people and they need to. They need their treatments and stuff that they need to to survive. That's different than me sitting here going oh well, you know what? I saw a rainbow. So therefore I feel like a woman today, right. And then you still have this whole entire thing of with these people is they keep on doing this and they want to attack us, you know, ethically or morally on this, but they never want to attack our actual belief systems. I mean example like the initiation, since we believe in it and that you.
Speaker 3:It takes a witch to make a witch and the other side believes. Basically, you can just declare yourself a witch. I can't tell these people not to believe this way. I can't look at them and say, hey, you know what? Quit, demonize me because I do.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:And if you get upset because I don't perceive you as a witch, that's your problem, not mine, because my understanding is that theory goes along the lines of if one believes themselves a witch, they are Not. That their family believes it, not that their dog believes it, not that some weirdo you know on the other side of the country believes it. Right, that you and you alone believe it. I mean, we get told a lot of times that we're nuts for believing in magic. Oh, absolutely, but it doesn't change our beliefs.
Speaker 3:I mean we normally look at them and go, ok, fine, whatever, if that's what you don't know, right.
Speaker 1:Well, i mean, that's that's how they believe, i mean, and it's just, and it's just, like with this article there's there's another lady. She says Jeanine Nelson Hoffman says she's an elder high priestess and she serves on the board of a national organization called the Covenant of the Goddess, and she says that she's already making changes in her own coven Good for her And that she believes, right, that trans, non-binary, lesbian gays were all part of humanity And that if you exclude any of them, then you're excluding experiences from your spirituality. Ok, but now here's my saying. Well, let me finish this out. She also says I don't believe your spirituality can be whole because you were excluding part of humanity. Ok, that's fine, that's the way she believes, right. And my problem with this is these trends and non-binary, lesbian and other gay people have nothing to do with my spirituality.
Speaker 3:Exactly.
Speaker 1:So if I choose to exclude any of these other people and I'm a gay man, by the way if I choose to exclude any of these other people from my practice, that's my business and it has no impact on my spirituality whatsoever.
Speaker 3:Again. Well, like when we do our classes, ok, you've heard me say it so many times, you know it by heart, and all the other people, from Lord Lou all the way to Lady Maya and Ravenwood None of us will ever sit there and tell you we're teaching you the way. All we're saying is we're going to teach you a way, right, and that's it. Don't expect anything more, don't expect anything less. We have to remember people choose with their feet. You walk in of your own free will. You're going to leave of your own free will, absolutely. I don't understand why in the world people can't just say OK, it's fine for you to believe this way, but what I keep on hearing from these people is no, you must do what we say. And these are also the same people who will sit there and have a hissy fit as soon as it's a Christian person. Right, saying it to them. You are just as bad as them.
Speaker 1:No, you're doing the same thing this to me.
Speaker 3:If you were doing this, you you're not a member of craft. We don't do this. Y'all need to stop and back the hell off right.
Speaker 3:I mean, there is a Traditional witchcraft community that still lurks underneath all of this, and I'm talking like us, who believe that you have to be a member of a Coven to be a witch. We are still out there. We are still there. We might might be as vocal as the rest of you, because we're tired of fighting with y'all over stupid shit, but we're still here. You still need to respect us, just the same way we respect you.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:I mean, there's nothing.
Speaker 1:There's nothing that says You can't believe your own way, that you can't practice craft the way you feel you need to practice it, But that was comfortable for you. But it doesn't entitle you to tell me how to practice my craft.
Speaker 3:That I must accept something that I must not accept. They are do this or do that. I Don't remember voting any of these people. Popes of the witches.
Speaker 1:No, well, and even in the article, i mean, she does say that she's this Janine Hoffman. She does counsel people and I don't know if that's her polite way of saying she's telling people This is what they need to do. She's making suggestions. I don't know that for sure, but she says that she counsels people To not wait until you have non-gender conforming people show up at your door.
Speaker 3:Okay, in order to make changes, no, first of all, let's think about this rationally. The majority 94% of the population is freaking straight mm-hmm. You might as well plan that. That's kind of like. The majority of the world is right-handed All right, unless you're left-handed, you don't know what in the world that's like. But it will never be the other way around. No possible.
Speaker 1:You have nothing to compare it to.
Speaker 3:When I'm sitting there, watching a woman sitting there saying that she's a lesbian and pointing to her non-binary boyfriend.
Speaker 1:Oh.
Speaker 3:What part of the LGBT? No, you're not your straight couple larping right, come on.
Speaker 1:No, I agree.
Speaker 3:And I mean these and again. These are the same people that want to tell me how to believe. They think they are wise enough. I'm not wise enough to tell them what in the world to believe, but they are to me, no, no it doesn't work that way again, there's that superiority complex that they have. You'll need to take a chill pill.
Speaker 1:You know it is a little discouraging, mm-hmm, but I tell you it's really nice, because we posted this as part of a discussion on our Discord.
Speaker 3:Yes, we did.
Speaker 1:And we had quite a few people speaking up against the views in the article.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 1:And it's encouraging to note that there are others, that you and I are not the only ones who believe this way. No we're not, You know. we may only be a handful of people, but it's still encouraging to know that there are others who feel this way and believe this way.
Speaker 3:I mean, let's admit it, the traditional witchcraft community is a very small community at large.
Speaker 1:Yes, it is Yes.
Speaker 3:I mean honestly and truly. When we get down to it, we're a very small sect.
Speaker 1:And it may be getting smaller, but that's fine.
Speaker 3:I mean it is nice to see people following and listening. I mean I'm not saying we're getting some, you know, rush, bang, boom.
Speaker 1:No, no, of course not.
Speaker 3:Or anything like that. But I mean we do exist. I am still teaching people Right, we still have people wanting to come and take classes. I'm not saying we're growing, but we're not shrinking either. Right, you know, and not all of those people are going to stay with us, so you know, no, no, just because you take classes with us does not necessarily mean you get initiated Or that you even ask to get initiated.
Speaker 1:Well, no, and well, and then too, we still believe the whole vote with your feet. If there's something that you feel you can't live with, by all means leave. go find something that fits you.
Speaker 3:I mean, well, we've talked about this before. The one lady that showed up who was an extreme feminist Yes, in class, and you know, we both sat there and said, you know, it wouldn't have bothered me if she just got up and just said, no, this ain't for me. I'm leaving now.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:You know the fact that she didn't come back, I know mean to her or anything.
Speaker 1:She seemed really nice, i know, i mean there were, there were no hard feelings And I don't think, i don't think she left from her point, i don't think she left on bad terms, anyway, i just think she right, she got upset with something and decided she couldn't agree with that and that that was, that was a, that was the straw for her.
Speaker 3:And again, that's fine, but how do we go from that to suddenly? you must start doing this, you must start believing this way, you must start believing that the gods are non binary.
Speaker 1:I believe that the gods and the goddesses, you know, deity is non gendered.
Speaker 3:But again, but it still has a polarity.
Speaker 1:It still has a masculine and a feminine side to it.
Speaker 3:Why I mean it has the active in the passive.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I'm not in the pool.
Speaker 3:I believe I mean no matter what and what we do, these still exist, right, you know, perceived as masculine or feminine, or polarities, is still the same thing.
Speaker 1:Yes, it is. It's still the same thing.
Speaker 3:You know you're getting all upset because, yes, we are still going to refer to it as a God and a goddess.
Speaker 1:Mm, hmm.
Speaker 3:I am not going to suddenly start using some whacked out term because you want inclusion in my circle Right.
Speaker 1:I'm not going to use some obscure pronoun for my deity.
Speaker 3:I mean because, again, would you like me to come into your circle and start telling you what in the hell to do?
Speaker 1:No, that would not go over very well.
Speaker 3:So I mean, I really do. I have to ask these people It's somebody freaking. answer the question for one. Why do y'all feel justified in telling us how in the hell we're supposed to believe? Seriously, right?
Speaker 1:Well, i mean, one of the one of the comments on our discord was my house, my rules. You don't like it, leave. Thank you, no hard feelings, but this is the way we do things here, and if you don't like it, don't come. I mean you already hear and you find out.
Speaker 3:Leave Again. I don't mind debate, No, but when you're sitting there telling me and basically coming off like a authoritarian dictator and next thing I'm going to have to start asking you is well, at what extent are you going to go to make me believe this Right, Or are you going to bring back the dunking? So are you going to bring back the pressings? Well are you going to start burning people back on the pyres Right? I mean?
Speaker 1:seriously, yeah, i mean, how far are you going to take it?
Speaker 3:We've been through this before, you know. There's this constant my way, my way, my way. At the rate it's going. Everything it seems like they're trying to do is make everything more homogenous. Everything, just like everything else.
Speaker 1:Right, and that's not what's supposed to be going to happen.
Speaker 3:Well, at the same time screaming out individuality, it's not, It's just. everybody's gonna wind up looking and being the same. Yeah, you can't do that.
Speaker 1:And I don't think that will ever work.
Speaker 3:God, i hope it don't Right, right, we'll be clones of each other. Again, you can believe whatever you want. If this is the way you want to worship, that's your business, Right? It's not mine. I am not judging that. These are the reasons why I don't like it, and this is the reasons you need. If you want me to change my mind, you're gonna have to start fighting.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:Instead of just coming at me that I'm a bad guy. I mean, it's the same thing for our initiation thing. All right, and do you start breaking down my pillars of what in the world I base it on? You're not gonna change my mind just coming after me. Ew, you're mean Right. You're not nice. That ain't fair, Because you know you sort of have to ask these people what is fair, What are you? judging fair by.
Speaker 1:It's exactly, you know. And what I don't see as fair is that nobody else is telling you, telling these people, that they can't do this, but yet they expect us to make all the changes. I mean, not too long ago, we saw a TikTok from a Lutheran church, a Lutheran church Who changed their doxology to include a non-binary deity who goes by the pronoun of they. Really, really, you have just destroyed Christianity.
Speaker 3:Because it is supposed to be a personal connection. You need a personal word and they is not. It Right?
Speaker 1:I mean, when you go and you start, just you start breaking down the very basis of religion, of any religion. you've destroyed its core. Yes, How do you expect that's going to survive?
Speaker 3:Well, sometimes I think that might be the point.
Speaker 1:Well, that, they're just trying to destroy it, trying to get rid of it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because you know any free thought out there is, you know, evil.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but see, if they do that, then they can't call themselves Wiccan anymore.
Speaker 3:Funny how that is.
Speaker 1:You know, they say they don't want to be part of an organized religion. We've had that argument before. I'm not going to go into detail, but But again it is. They say they don't want to be part of an.
Speaker 3:I don't want to be part of an organized religion, but yet you must follow and believe the way I do.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:All right.
Speaker 1:No, don't work that way, honey Darling, and I'm sorry it's going to take a little bit more.
Speaker 3:I was very Southern Baptist. I know some of that brimstone and fire.
Speaker 1:Absolutely yes.
Speaker 3:Make you go home and have some nightmares. Talk about stepping on some toes, So yeah, This is my only problem is, again, I feel like I am being someone is forcing their religion down my throat And all I keep on saying is back off.
Speaker 1:Right, because that's not what we do.
Speaker 3:That's not what we do. And if this is what you're doing, you're not a pagan, You're something else. Right? You know? from Thorn Mooney all the way down No.
Speaker 1:It is time that y'all stop. And I was just going to say. I think it boils down to what we've said time and time again I don't force you to believe a certain way or believe in certain things. You don't force me to believe a certain way or believe in certain things, thank you. I don't know what happened to the whole live and let live. That used to be a part of the pagan mindset, but we need to get back to that.
Speaker 3:And we need to start living in harmony again. Start cleaning up our own backyards before we get cleaned up somebody else's.
Speaker 1:Right, thank you. You and I don't agree with each other on some things. And we have yeah and we have people that we talk to on a regular basis. There are people in our coven But we just. there are things we don't agree on.
Speaker 3:Exactly.
Speaker 1:But we don't hold any animosity towards each other for that. We accept our differences and we move on.
Speaker 3:I mean, well, again we're back to this the way, the more traditional, what man you were used to. We know a lot of other traditions here And again, the whole entire mindset back. There was not my tradition, right, you know? yes, you can be respectful, ask questions and try to figure out what in the world's going on, but not be insulting and stuff like that. They're not going to chop your head off because you look confused because they understand your different traditions than them. Right, absolutely. You're supposed to look confused, right?
Speaker 1:It's natural, it's okay, it's okay.
Speaker 3:We know this. It's easy for me to go down to Ravenwood and look at and look at later Not my tradition. I'm going to stand right here where you told me to be.
Speaker 1:Right, you tell me what you need to do and I'll do it.
Speaker 3:Thank you, yes, ma'am. May I have another?
Speaker 1:I might have some questions later, but for now this is the yeah, we'll just go with it.
Speaker 3:We'll go with it Right At the end of the day. It doesn't hurt to be courteous.
Speaker 1:No, and it doesn't hurt to be different.
Speaker 3:No, you know, and it does not hurt and it does not hurt to be respectful.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening. Join us next week for another episode. Peg and Coffee Talk is brought to you by Life Temple and Seminary. Please visit us at lifetimepleseminaryorg for more information, as well as links to our social media Facebook, Discord, Twitter, YouTube and Reddit.
