Pagan Coffee Talk
We will discuss topics related to the Pagan community. All views are from a traditionalist's point of view. The conversations are unscripted (no preparations have been made ahead of time). A special thanks to Darkest Era for the use of their songs: Intro- The Morrigan, Exit - Poem to the Gael. Check them out at http://darkestera.net/.
Pagan Coffee Talk
Commentary on the Wiccan Rede
Come with us on a journey as we explore the lines and rhymes the Wiccan Rede, written by Lady Gwen Thompson. We start our journey with a brief history of this famous document and how it relates or correlates to modern wicca. Then we proceed to breakdown the quatrains with a brief explanation of how we interpret each one. Hate it or love it, the real question is, are there bits of wisdom in this lovely poem from the 1960's. Different viewpoints can give more insight, and we hope our view provides a little bit of insight for you.
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Music. Welcome to Peg and Coffee Talk. Here are your hosts, Azwan and Lord Knight. We're going to talk about the reed, the Wiccan reed.
Speaker 2:Yay.
Speaker 1:Now it wasn't too long ago. We heard well, you heard, you want to tell this. You heard somebody saying something about the reed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I heard someone say something about the reed. They were trying to give the argument that they think the short reed came first and then the long reed.
Speaker 1:Uh-huh.
Speaker 2:But from my research and history there was a long version. Then it was rewritten by someone else and placed in the green egg. Then the short version started to show up later, from my understanding.
Speaker 1:So Well, the little bit of history that I have found this was. It was written the Wiccan reed as we know it. The long version was written by Lady Gwen Thompson. She was a New England priestess and she wrote the reed in the 1960s. She attributed her adaptation, so, again, not the original. She attributed her adaptation to her ancestor, adrian Porter, to her teachings.
Speaker 1:This particular reed is younger than Gardenarian Wicca Right. She developed a reed the same time as Alexandria Wicca. It was stateside, though, and had no bearing on Gardenarian, alexandrian or Cochran's 1734 tradition. Most Gardenarians, according to this article just saying, have said that it is not remotely connected to their tradition at all. Doreen Valliente talks about it like it is in her book called Witchcraft for Tomorrow. Not sure why she does, but she's seen some Gardenarians say that she added stuff and stopped being Gardenarian in her later writings. In short, the reed, which means Councilor Advice, is not descended from the same sources as most modern Wicca and is not a requirement for being Wiccan, and it is not necessarily indicative of Wicca and Zisman. I would agree, all right.
Speaker 2:It's hard to argue with history.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Again, our view in our tradition is this has always been advice Right and advice only. It's not no steady rule or something that we have to follow, like they do in the Wicca community no-transcript, you know to where it is their ethical moral. It to us it's not, it's just advice.
Speaker 1:Okay, so it's not like rules or laws or anything like that right, it's just advice.
Speaker 2:I mean, there's some things there and good to do, but We'll see as we go through it, I guess.
Speaker 1:All right, yeah, so you. So you do want to just go through this, and we'll discuss a few bullet points here and there right.
Speaker 2:All right yeah, this one came from. This is the one that came from Green Egg. Yes and I forgot when it was published.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's, this is the long version and it is the most widely distributed Version of this one matter of fact, I think most of the traditional witchcraft community, like us, use the same thing.
Speaker 2:I believe so the majority of us. Maybe not all of us, but hmm.
Speaker 1:All right. So here it is. It's the advice from the old ones by the Wiccan laws you must, in perfect love and perfect trust, live, and let live fairly take and fairly give.
Speaker 2:Well, let's stop there. Okay now, the laws that are referring to in this are the laws from Lady Sheba Right, hence the reason there's an S on the end of it, unlike in the short version, where there's just law right.
Speaker 1:What was next after that?
Speaker 2:Imperfect love and perfect trust we understand perfect love and perfect trust. This is it's perfect love and perfect trust, either you trust the people in circle and you don't. All right, then there's live and let live all right, now, this is an actually interesting concept. All right, we're not going to go again. This is that idea of we might go out and kill a deer and eat it, but we're not going to go out and like, slaughter a hole, entire field of buffalo. Yeah, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:You know we're only going to take the meat that we need to eat. We're not out hunting for gain.
Speaker 1:Right, that's. That's that fairly taken, fairly good take what you need and need what you take.
Speaker 2:Right which we'll get back into that a little bit later. I believe All right.
Speaker 1:So keep going, keep going. One, okay, cast the circle thrice about to keep the evil spirits out.
Speaker 2:First, the great mysteries. What do you want me to say? Okay, it's true, we cast, we believe we cast a circle right. So my three times three times.
Speaker 1:All right to bind the spell every time. Let the spell be spoken rhyme.
Speaker 2:Doing that rhyme Things seems to help us alter our consciousness. Right Again, it's a good rule of thumb, because if you sit there, you just think about sitting there, going over like a twinkle, twinkle little star or something like that. Right, that's what we're talking about. Exactly yes that help you kind of get into that rhythm and Right, it's a whole rhythm thing it does. It does alter your consciousness a little bit right and it does help on casting spells to be in that altered state.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:It's not needed to cast this spell. It helps to alter your state of consciousness, right?
Speaker 1:All right, soft of eye and light of touch.
Speaker 2:Speaky little, listen much we use this phrase a lot and Basically, this isn't that you're not supposed to question elders or blah, blah, blah, you know, like you might hear in a lot of other places and stuff like that. That's not wonderful. This is about. Right starting to ask the question why use that word, why say it that way when it could be said a different way?
Speaker 1:What the speaky little listen month right.
Speaker 2:It's just sort of asking those questions to listen to what people are saying and start asking you a question why are they saying it that way? Okay message or they trying to get across.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it also indicates that we need to be a little more aware of our surroundings, and if we're running our mouth, we can't really do that.
Speaker 2:Well, is that? Is that active listening that they? Teach right that we're talking about that, that really, you actually are paying attention to what the world's going on and Asking yourself one of these words, one odd other words, and and trying to figure out what the person's actually trying to say makes perfect sense. Because there's a lot of times and I've seen a lot here where somebody will say something, but that's not exactly what I meant.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that happens a lot.
Speaker 2:It happens a lot and the majority of the times when you listen to that is people not listening.
Speaker 1:Hmm.
Speaker 2:Alright, you with me.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Alright, do you still go by waxing moon, chanting out the witch's room?
Speaker 2:That's just a pretty line and if you've ever read the witch's room.
Speaker 1:Okay, when the lady's moon is new, kiss the hand to her times two.
Speaker 2:We're talking about duality here and that they are the guardians of life.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:How do you go from one to two?
Speaker 1:Very true.
Speaker 2:Well, if you notice, the God was never mentioned in that, because he had become two Right.
Speaker 1:No, but it ticks the God.
Speaker 2:To help yeah.
Speaker 1:When the moon rides at her peak, then your heart's desire seek.
Speaker 2:This is asking for that wisdom. This is, this is basically us. You need to celebrate your full moon. You need to do the aspects. You need to bathe in her glory.
Speaker 1:Alright, heed the North wind's mighty gale, lock the door and drop the sail. There's more after that I think. Oh yeah, it goes into each direction.
Speaker 2:I believe this section is really talking about the Grand Sabbath.
Speaker 1:If you finish reading it all. Okay, so we've got Heed the North wind's mighty gale lock the door and drop the sail. When the wind comes from the south, love will kiss the on the mouth. When the wind comes from the west, departed souls will have no rest. When the wind blows from the east, expect the new and set the feast.
Speaker 2:See, I think those are all talked about the Grand Sabbaths. And so you don't really think that there's any individual mysteries there, it's just to remind you about this Right, putting that will of the year in there, because it's part of us. It is to remind us to keep that will in mind as we do things.
Speaker 1:So you don't think there's any mystery in the love. Will kiss the on the mouth, or departed souls will have no rest. Well, I can set the fees. None of that.
Speaker 2:None of that. Again, this is.
Speaker 1:I think this is just to make it run.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just to make it run. Okay, you know. No real mysteries there. Again, I think they're talking about the Grand Sabbaths, especially that you know. Kiss the hands by two, set the feast Not a, or how did they go?
Speaker 1:Dearly departed souls will not Departed. Souls have no rest. Right the sound when love, love, kissing the on the mouth.
Speaker 2:In bulk.
Speaker 1:Right, like the door and drop the sale.
Speaker 2:You're with me, okay, so that's just that's the will of the year. That's the will of the year.
Speaker 1:Okay, nine woods in the caldron. Go burn them fast and burn them slow.
Speaker 2:It's just to remind us of our Celtic roots.
Speaker 1:Mm, hmm.
Speaker 2:And where some of this comes from, and to respect that.
Speaker 1:So that is the nine sacred woods Woods introetic customs. Okay, so that you think that comes from Welsh traditions or well I'm, they'll give me the line.
Speaker 2:Okay, it's not really sure where that comes from, but right, but we know the nine woods come from the druid druidic traditions. Okay, Elder.
Speaker 1:Be your lady's tree, harm it not, or cursed you'll be.
Speaker 2:If you've ever burnt, elder, you know what the curse is. Just saying Again, this is a simple play on words and kind of funny because, elder, when you're burning it smells really bad, right, and the curse is if you get this, when you get the smoke on you, you're gonna reek too for a few days.
Speaker 1:It's kind of like being it's kind of like being sprayed with a skunk. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, not quite as nice but it's gonna.
Speaker 1:It's the point is, it's gonna stick around for a while.
Speaker 2:Both have their own fragrance.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's a unique fragrance.
Speaker 2:Again, common sense, wisdom we can work with.
Speaker 1:Okay, when the wheel begins to turn, let the belltine fires burn. When the wheel has turned, a yule light the log. The horned ones ruled.
Speaker 2:The less they're just talking about the lessers.
Speaker 1:Alright, so again. Wheel of the year.
Speaker 2:The first one was the grand. These are the lessers.
Speaker 1:Okay, heed e flower bush and tree by the lady blessed be.
Speaker 2:This is to know your herbs, being able to identify them.
Speaker 1:Gotcha.
Speaker 2:Alright, that that that which we have lost the ability to do. Most people can't identify trees and blah blah plants. Right, you know there are people out there that have no idea what in the world a dandelion really looks like in real life.
Speaker 1:Right. I don't know how that's possible, but I get what you're saying, yeah.
Speaker 2:In other words me, and you would be able to identify a musketons musketons. Musketons, we can. We can recognize them because we used to eat them as kids, right Picking them up right off the vine. So that's what we're talking about here. This is what this talks about to me is that we should be able to identify this stuff by slide automatically.
Speaker 1:Gotcha Alright. Where the rippling waters go, cast a stone and truth you'll know.
Speaker 2:Again, altering states of consciousness, devonation, Devonation, all this other stuff. Mainly, it's taking time to go somewhere and steal your mind away from the world.
Speaker 1:Gotcha. When you have a truly need hearken not to others, greed I think that's pretty self-explanatory. You think?
Speaker 2:In our tradition, we believe that we're allowed to do what we need to to survive. Alright Then, but then there comes a point to where survival you're sort of overdoing it. Alright, yeah, the idea there is yes, you need money and work and blah blah blah, that you have to survive in here, but you don't necessarily need I don't need to be a millionaire or a trillionaire.
Speaker 1:Gotcha.
Speaker 2:You know there is a point to where accumulating this stuff is just obsessively narcissistic and stupid Right. You know what are two people going to do in a mansion with 20 rooms?
Speaker 1:Have a party, but then you got to worry about the cleanup.
Speaker 2:Then you got to worry about the cleanup who won't, who won't? Yeah, again, that's how we're talking about it, asking for what we need versus what we want.
Speaker 1:Alright, with a fool, no season spend, nor be counted as his friend.
Speaker 2:This is that whole entire. Don't take people at face value. You listen to us. You listen to anyone else. Go back, do your research, reread, do it yourself. Right, absolutely Alright. Don't trust any of us. What?
Speaker 1:are you saying Alright, marry meat and marry part. Bright the cheeks and warm the hearts. Again I was going to say I have to ask bright the cheeks, does that mean when you meet somebody you slap them across the face?
Speaker 2:No, I would say probably kiss them. But it is that we are supposed to greet each other and friendship them once in love. You should be excited to see the lady again. You should be excited to see your high priest again. This is a wonderful time, especially during the Sabbath and the espad. You want to be there.
Speaker 1:Marry, all right, mind the threefold law. You should three times bad and three times good.
Speaker 2:Notice I didn't say obey this said, mind Right that energies do re. There's always an equal and opposite reactions to everything we do, and it's been aware of those reactions.
Speaker 1:So now do you think that it really comes back to you three times?
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, it depends on what the world it is. It could come back to you emotionally, spiritually and even psychically.
Speaker 1:So that could be the three times.
Speaker 2:Right On three different levels. You know again, think about like guys coming back from war. I think this is what we're talking about here in this that we have to be aware of our own limitations.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:There's only so much stress that a human body can handle.
Speaker 1:Exactly All right when misfortune is a now where the blue star on the brow.
Speaker 2:According to Lord Mead, they actually used to do this. What was the purpose?
Speaker 1:of the blue star.
Speaker 2:Get rid of bad luck misfortune. Well, they never called it bad luck, they always called it misfortune.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:All right when you know. Hey, you clumsy. Whatever people actually used to wear a cordon, lord Mead, they used to put a blue star on the forehead when there was bad luck around.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:You know I'm sure that would be hard to explain to people why in the world you're doing that, but okay, Well, I think it would be more like Ash Wednesday. Thank you when people.
Speaker 1:You know you go to church and you get atoned. You know, with the Ash Cross on your forehead, Right Again.
Speaker 2:This was just done with a blue star though, Right Garfield.
Speaker 1:All right, true and love ever be, unless thy lovers faults to thee.
Speaker 2:Hmm, we have to keep our words. The oaths that we take in front of the gods must be obeyed.
Speaker 1:Hmm, and I also think this is this is more common sense about dealing with relationships with other people.
Speaker 2:Well, of course, but again, it's being mature enough to realize what yours wearing, your allegiance to Exactly All right, this is keeping your word Is where really what it amounts to, not just in love, but you're taking oaths in front of God, so you might want to think about them before you start swearing them.
Speaker 1:Right, all right. And then, last but not least, these eight words the read fulfill and harm you none, do what you will.
Speaker 2:We believe in self defense and all this, but we're not going to. Basically, this tells us we're not supposed to go out of our way to hurt someone, right?
Speaker 1:No, it's not be don't be malicious about it.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:But if it's in protection.
Speaker 2:In protection. Yeah, any mom protecting their kid, any parent protecting their kids from any sources. I'm going to find it hard not to agree with the parents, right, you know. So I don't have a problem with this. Self defense is good we have to be aware of, though, to make sure that we put out just enough to stop the violence, not to you create, not to create more.
Speaker 2:Right, we're trying not to do that cycle of memorable when we were kids and you know my sister can beat up your sister, my dad can beat up you, yeah, or you get beat up. So your friends go beat up somebody else, which then they come back and beat up. These are the cycles we're trying to prevent. Makes sense yeah which is weird because I could have sworn there was a line in there about self-defense, but I Think that that's in another version, all right, but yeah, there's.
Speaker 1:There's a version out there that mentions Defensive be right, you want to follow the long way again.
Speaker 2:If you don't want to, you don't have to. Again, to us as advice and that's it right you know you take it or leave it. I'm not going to make it at some hard fast rule, but I do realize it's been changed over the years. And then you have the wicking version which?
Speaker 1:is these eight words the read fulfill and you harm, not do what you will right and again, when we talk about wheel there we're talking literally your wheel.
Speaker 2:What will? You can force upon the world not do whatever Ever.
Speaker 1:Am I mean since there? Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's about what your strength and your ability can do to the world, not the other way around. Not that you just really nearly do whatever in the world you won't.
Speaker 1:Exactly. I mean, there are some limitations here.
Speaker 2:Well, there are some limitations. But again is about your personal wheel. It's been an argument, I know what it was, a debate that let me and Lord man had over that part for many years. I Know.
Speaker 1:You two had some interesting conversations regarding that for sure.
Speaker 2:Because I thought it was personal, well, and he just thought it was whatever you can do whatever you want right.
Speaker 2:And I was like I don't think. So I think I think they're talking about your, your personal wheel. So I Mean don't get me wrong, I'm not gonna get hung up on this, or you know what I mean. Like right other people, it's nice advice. You should read the laws, you should learn the laws and go through. All right, I didn't say you actually had to follow them, but it's nice to know what the laws the laws that is mentioned in this one you know, by the way, laws you must.
Speaker 1:So you don't, you don't think we should be following those.
Speaker 2:Well, no, I think we should be following. That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 3:Oh.
Speaker 2:I mean, all I'm saying is, if you don't want to, don't think anybody's gonna make you to, I Think you shouldn't you with me. Yeah, you know that whole entire, you know, you believe whatever in a world. You're mom, you know. But again, this is why it's advice to us, once we break it down. There's no real Mysteries there per se. Right, I mean there are a lot of common sense advice common sense advice.
Speaker 2:There are some things that are allude to mysteries and our tradition, but nothing Substantial right, it's not like there's it's full of mysterious content or anything.
Speaker 1:It's.
Speaker 2:Right and the sad part is and I could be wrong and some other people might say I'm wrong, but we don't get writing like this anymore.
Speaker 1:I don't think we do, or if we do, it's not very widespread.
Speaker 2:We don't get a lot of this. We don't get a lot of the charge of the goddess, we don't get these Things that are wrapped up, that have mysteries and meaning to them built into.
Speaker 3:Right used to.
Speaker 2:I don't. I don't see it as much I could be wrong. It's not looking in the right place.
Speaker 1:Well, and like I said there, there may be some of these writings that are, you know, contained within an Individuals book of shadows or an end. You know, it may be contained within a coven, but it's just not widespread.
Speaker 2:It's just not widespread. It might not be, but, like I said, we don't have a lot of these that we used to know. Alright, I mean, I'm sorry, when I hear the charge of the goddess I there's just this emotional response. I can't help, right? You know, it's kind of like that poem we do during souring. Yes you know, Lois, I'll remember the low I shall remember. Yeah, again, it is this wonderful thing of tradition that we do during souring to remember those have passed on.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:I don't see a lot of writing like this. Again, I'll sit here's that might not have seen it, so if somebody knows where it is.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening. Join us next week for another episode. Peg and coffee talk is brought to you by life temple and seminary. Please visit us at life temple seminary org for more information, as well as links to our social media Facebook, discord, twitter, youtube and reddit we travel down this trodden path, the maze of stone and mire.
Speaker 3:Just hold my hand as we pass by a sea of blazing fires. And so it is the end of our days. So walk with me till morning breaks. And so it is the end of our days. So walk with me till morning.
