Pagan Coffee Talk
We will discuss topics related to the Pagan community. All views are from a traditionalist's point of view. The conversations are unscripted (no preparations have been made ahead of time). A special thanks to Darkest Era for the use of their songs: Intro- The Morrigan, Exit - Poem to the Gael. Check them out at http://darkestera.net/.
Pagan Coffee Talk
The Dark Side of WitchTok and Social Media Scams
Can magic influence politics, or is it a misuse of our spiritual powers? Join us for a compelling discussion on the ethics of blending politics with pagan practices. We tackle the controversial topic of using magic to affect election results, urging our fellow witches to steer clear of manipulative acts that infringe upon others' free will. Instead, we emphasize the power of positive political activism and the importance of voting for candidates who resonate with our beliefs. Learn why we believe that ritual spaces should remain free from political agendas, ensuring that our spiritual and communal practices remain pure and untainted by external influences and why we draw a line between spirituality and politics.
In the latter half of our episode, we address the rise of fraudulent practices within WitchTok and the commercialization of magic on social media. Just as Dionne Warwick's psychic line and Miss Cleo's persona misled many in the past, today's digital platforms are fraught with similar dangers. We discuss the ethical concerns of exploiting younger audiences and the urgent need for stricter regulation of these accounts.
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Welcome to Pagan Coffee Talk. If you enjoy our content, please consider donating and following our socials. Now here are your hosts, L lady Abba and Lord N Knight.
Speaker 2:Alright, so it's an election year, as we all know.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:I would say you know, for as long as social media has been around, I have seen scores of witches and people in the pagan community talking about using their abilities, their time, their spiritual efforts, either alone or with others, to curse candidates, to sway election results, to basically start bringing politics into their magic. Stop it.
Speaker 3:Please.
Speaker 2:Stop it.
Speaker 3:I beg of you.
Speaker 2:That is not activism in witchcraft. No, that is not activism in witchcraft no. Activism is prompting other pagans to vote, and voting for the candidate who supports your beliefs, your beliefs and whatever it is you're looking for.
Speaker 3:Because the closest you're ever going to get at me is quit voting for the person you hate the least. Yeah, vote for the person you like the most.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the person you hate the least. Yeah. Vote for the person you like the most yeah. But this idea of magic and politics is what the fuck?
Speaker 3:why? Okay, what makes people think they have the right to override what other people want to do? Yeah, because at the at the core of this, this is what in the world they're talking about. Yeah, this is manipulation. People are trying to manipulate people's wheels.
Speaker 2:Yeah right, I'm going to. You just said it exactly. I'm going to override the majority vote to sway something.
Speaker 3:Because I don't think I'm going to get the outcome. I won't.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Clearly, obviously right. He's been a huge topic and target for many pagans for their magic over the last eight years. I just and all I'm going to say is he's Facebook and rally a bunch of other pagans to get together over a Zoom meeting on a designated moon and try to take him down. That's a lot of effort and a lot of energy going up against a tidal wave of millions of other people again.
Speaker 3:You cannot fight the tidal wave right? We're talking about the same thing that happened with the people on witch talk who wanted to curse the moon it's the same thing it's the same thing anything that you're doing.
Speaker 2:That's that large a scale. Me personally, I automatically expect it to backfire.
Speaker 3:I don't even expect it to get out the front door. Yeah, that too.
Speaker 2:But I find it interesting again that politics is becoming a part of people's religious pride. Why of people's religious pride? Why this baffles me. In the same way it baffles me when I see christians have a picture of the president on their shrine at home you know what I mean?
Speaker 3:because, again, lifestyles have become so politicized, all right. So christians come out and they're going, hey, you know what, to be a virtuous christian and stuff. This is the lifestyle, oh no yeah, it's weird you know it's okay for them to say that, it's okay for you not to listen to?
Speaker 2:yes but the idea that we have to. To me it's also in line with the whole the eco discussion. Yeah, that we have to cast spells to save the earth. Oh boy, she's fine.
Speaker 3:You know I'm so important.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when she's had enough of us, trust me, she'll deal with it. She doesn't care, she's going to boot us in the ass, no problem.
Speaker 3:God forbid if she tells her big brother the universe to do something to us.
Speaker 2:I mean, do am I saying we have to contribute and be complacent? No, no, but why do we have to start publicly? Shaming yeah, and making politics part of a group or solitary practice. That's a slippery, slippery slope.
Speaker 3:We're also basing this on whether we like someone or not. If we're going to be friends with someone, yeah. To amaze everyone, mine and your politics are probably so far apart. We've never discussed it and I never will. I don't want to, I don't care.
Speaker 2:But here's what's funny, I can honestly say in all my years pagan gathers, meetings with elders classes, group discussions I can't think of a single political discussion. Ever, Nope, ever, especially that revolved around a candidate Now maybe an issue, maybe a bill. Now, maybe an issue, maybe a bill.
Speaker 3:I remember us sitting at a full moon meeting. Someone brought that up and both of us shot him down real fast when he went to go say something.
Speaker 2:We were like no, no, you don't, no, yeah. We don't discuss that here, but typically, like I said, maybe a bill that I could see, but candidates, no, no, shut up. I don't want to unleash. First of all, why would I even want that in ritual space? Truly ew, ew, so gross. I don't want that anywhere near my spiritual practices.
Speaker 3:I mean, like I could feel that sticking to my robe, Well, and then to take into account that sometimes spells do things in funky ways, mm-hmm, so I'm just saying but part of it is such a sign of the times.
Speaker 2:Right Again, everybody has to be involved, everybody has an opinion, everybody thinks their opinion is right, everybody's so heated and so fired up. But again I will say find me an Eastern practitioner, find me a Buddhist who gives a damn about a political candidate. They don't Nope, yeah, it is so far off their radar and we kind of should be operating in a similar fashion again. It's not to say that in your personal life you can't do whatever you want. Attend rallies, you know.
Speaker 3:Participate, yeah do it volunteer. Go, go, go help the candidate out you best believe in but it has no place in church. No, no, and as and I'm going to sit here and say this, as long as I'm the head of this tradition this tradition will never endorse a candidate of any exactly you.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry. We could literally have a gay witch on the ballot and I'm pretty sure that we would be sitting there going damn it, we can't talk about it, we can't, we're just gonna sit here we're just gonna nod our heads, but we know we're poking each other right here going look we're still not going to like have his campaign stickers at the door for everybody to take. No, that is complete bullshit.
Speaker 3:That is not what we're here for and that is not our place and I'm not going to pull my hair out because someone pulls up and they have some political sticker on the back of their no and they come in a ritual is there right is there right?
Speaker 2:it's fine, don't care, don't like, leave it at the door, like everything else I put it to you.
Speaker 3:I put it the same way I believe in religion, but uh, it's not your religion, it's not your, it's not your politics. And no, nobody agrees with anyone.
Speaker 2:100 no, but I also think it. There's something again about the times we're in. It's the audacity to think that our gods give a shit about any of this. They've been here, they've been there, they've done that, they've seen it, they've seen these people come and go. Sure that in some ways they're going. Who are these false idols and these weirdos that are getting practically deified absolutely? But why would they interfere? Why, why would they care?
Speaker 3:it's a blip in time for them I mean, it's just at these scales that we were talking about these yeah again the relationship with your toenail yeah, and it really to me. It's remarkable how people think that the gods would give a damn Well did we mess up when we went around and we told a generation you're special?
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3:Here's an award. I don't know. Yeah, I mean honestly and truly I don't know. You're unique and special just the way you are.
Speaker 2:It's not even just that, it's again, it's the power, it's the influence, it's the fact that individuals now can see in real time a sort of like a trickle-down effect of what they say or what they do as it relates to socials and how it affects or influences other people in a way that we couldn't years ago, and that fuels some of it. But it's worthwhile to stop and take a tiny pause and go. Does this really have a bearing on my spiritual life?
Speaker 3:Now, does this help out? Yeah, in the long run and who?
Speaker 2:who does it help and why? You know, I mean there's I hate to say it, right behind trump. There's another trump, behind biden, there's another biden. There's always every politician, yeah. So let them do what they're going to do. That is not a spiritual affair, that's the affairs of men. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't know, I think A. I mean, I do know it's time for coffee.
Speaker 3:Oh God yes so you have cracked into witch talk oh, lord knight, oh my god, can I convert now?
Speaker 2:have? I have I cracked it? No, by no means, because I really do feel like witch talk is the never-ending rabbit hole of um hades. But I have so many thoughts and so many things I want to talk about and and who knows, this might end up being multi-part kind of episode thing because there's so much going on. All right. So first of all, I think we need to address the fact that witch talk, it's a force, it's a thing.
Speaker 3:It's happening, it's. You can't stop it. It has a life of its own.
Speaker 2:No, but what I'm seeing is a lot of manipulative money hungry bs uh-huh so it's well, but the uh social media witches I'm gonna use that term super loosely that are out there that are promoting um. What I'm seeing is a clear toxic advantage taking manipulative oh yeah, that's just preying on people's anxieties, fears doubts yes, and all of this shit about offering tarot readings and being spiritual advisors and you need to take my master class or my ultimate class.
Speaker 2:It's worse than that. It's people literally just going. I have your tarot reading. The gods, my guides, my angels like whatever you know they're using has spoken to me and I have a message directly for you. But if you want it, you have to message me. And then, of course, once you message this person, they tell you that you've got to pay them. You know, right Could be 10 bucks, it could be $500. But either way, it's a scheme.
Speaker 3:See people and I think people fall into this trap because they think the algorithm is so random.
Speaker 2:It's not though.
Speaker 3:But it's not.
Speaker 2:No, it's not. It's extremely targeted. It knows who you are and it is picking you. It is selecting you and these people are, it's so sad, right? They're preying on others. Now look, we've seen this throughout crafts as long as I can remember. Yes, we seek out spiritual counsel. Yes, we seek out those with different gifts psychics, mediums, tarot readers, intuitive individual, right, all of that but they are tools. They're not the end-all, be-all.
Speaker 3:No and well, again, again, let's talk about the mindset of that person who has to seem to have to have that tarot reading every day but that's it.
Speaker 2:There's something else going on there yeah and you know we talk about this an awful lot in craft, where if you don't find it within, you won't find it without. Yes, I'm quoting doreen valiente, I know, but I mean, it's true it is. It's a it's a primary principle for us, and so when you're dependent on others, you're just dependent yeah and it gets. And, and please understand, this isn't religion, that's not faith, that's not that's not anything.
Speaker 3:No, I mean again, everybody seems to think that you have to be connected to the occult or whatever just to use magic.
Speaker 2:All right, all you have to do is just everyone has magic, it's everyone, and it's so, so ridiculous. Well see, I've already, I've argued for a long time.
Speaker 3:People did not come to people like us for our connection to magic.
Speaker 2:They came to us for our wisdom and our knowledge yeah, they came for very specific reasons, but typically, again, how witches would get paid or compensated was very different. But this new culture, right, it's all about economics and it's all about gaining more money for these followings. I mean, I know you and I have referenced it before, but I can't help sitting and watching this and going it's just like dion warwick's psychic line in the 80s, exactly. And call me now for your free reading miss cleo yeah, who was?
Speaker 2:if you remember right, miss cleo was was the shit back in the 90. But the reality is she was completely debunked. Even the accent was fake.
Speaker 2:She wasn't even of any kind of island, haitian, jamaican, none of that. It was all bunk and it's the same idea. They're creating that same concept now. The difference is even back then, people honestly believed that when you called a psychic line, you were going to speak directly to that person. You never did, no, never. You spoke to call center individuals who were trained with scripts and in what to say and for different scenarios, and it was all pre-rehearsed. And now we're seeing the same thing. But the difference is because of the nature of social media. These people on TikTok or on these different platforms can actually record you a direct message and take a video for you. So people think, oh god, I've got you know. This is incredible like I'm special.
Speaker 3:No, we have the whole ghost phenomenon I have. I have whoopie goldberg reaching out to me to tell me a message from the other side right, but how many other people got that same message?
Speaker 2:and even if it was recorded specifically for you or if it is very personalized, it still doesn't mean that that person is not simply out to fill their pocketbook. It's extremely toxic and while on one hand I'm like you know there's witch talk has potential, yes, To be a resource and to be a place where people but when you sit here and see article after article after article of we're going to curse the moon, yeah.
Speaker 3:We're going to curse the.
Speaker 2:I mean, come on, the big thing right now is the election. Right, we're going to, we're going to curse Trump. We got to raise money to keep him out of office and to do all of these things and I'm like, where's his money going? Yeah, who's pocketing this? That's what Anybody could do, that.
Speaker 3:You know, I mean, do you really need that much money to cast a spell?
Speaker 2:That's my point, though I could go up to the grocery store and put a box out that says I'm gonna do the same thing and see how much you know donation money I can collect in a day. The only difference is I'm going to encounter all types, the people who are pro the argument and against the argument, but on something like witch talk again it's so targeted.
Speaker 3:No, no, no. What what kills me is nobody has ever sat there and stopped and go. Okay, what's the logic of this spell? If this is all true and all this, and we're really going to cast this spell, what are you going to do? But here's the thing how are you going to fight you?
Speaker 2:with me? I just I do. But here's what I want to know how is this any different than going to a church of any denomination and writing down what you need and putting it in the prayer box for someone again, right again, to pray for you, to maybe not petition deity, but you know what I mean.
Speaker 3:I mean, it's the same thing on the tv evangelist. Yeah, yeah, but they brought out I think it was the same stack of notes every time yeah, but there are so many places that will spiritually intervene on your behalf.
Speaker 2:What makes these witch talkers more effective or more powerful than anybody else? There's no logic to that, other than again, they're preying on. I don't want to say the week, because everybody can have a moment of weakness and I know people you might start out with. Hey, I'm gonna do a free read I'm gonna do a couple of free readings. Yeah, yeah, fate and switch.
Speaker 3:And then, all of a sudden, well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, draw them in.
Speaker 2:You know I got other clients and I'm doing you for free, so you're going to have to sort of pack and now they seem more legit, because now you're it's very, very disturbing to me that this is happening and on the surface, witch Talk has again this ability to be something wonderful, but instead it's creating these garbage scenarios where now the social media sites are having to crack down on these things and literally systematically shut down the accounts that are doing this because it's garbage. I mean again, it's like you're dealing with witch talk.
Speaker 3:You're dealing with mainly teenagers.
Speaker 2:Yeah, easy to oh, my god, absolutely, and I mean all their you know the love spells and the in some of the things that I'm seeing. I mean they're really disturbing, like a vague statement where somebody will go I foresee your love interest really having you on their mind in the coming weeks, prompting someone to potentially reach out to stalk bother right, another person on social media who may or may not even know of your existence, and especially with kids, right when you get you know school dynamics and all of that.
Speaker 3:I'm sure you have a few people out there that are doing that. No, no, she's.
Speaker 2:She's actually talking straight to me this has got to be causing some really bizarre strains out there, where kids are taking actions and really believing, thinking that the it's because the spirits said it was okay well, I mean, you got these people that sat there and they they've seen the stuff, they've done, their love spell, and then the very next day this just happens to pop up into their face, right right, and that's what I mean.
Speaker 2:It it's very predatory and again, the algorithm is much smarter than you give it credit for. It knows, it knows exactly what it's doing and, you know, I don't even think it's our listeners necessarily that are susceptible to this. Maybe some of them are, and this is a cautionary tale. But I think it's more about getting the word out there that this is not a standard practice or the way this works in the community.
Speaker 3:No, I think you're right. I think most of our listeners just heard that went oh shit right I would hope so.
Speaker 2:I would hope so. Yeah, but it's. But it's also about, like I said, spreading the word and banning together, in a sense, to be anti-witch talk or to be against some of these practices some of these people do a long con. Oh yeah, oh, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 3:And and I'm sorry those are those are a whole lot more devious than the whole nine yards Of course it is.
Speaker 2:And then you're almost some of them you're verging on cult tactics. It's, it's scary, and these are kids that are that are gravitating to this, being sucked in by this, are gravitating to this, being sucked in by this, and for how long and how much, and then they want again. We wonder why, in the community, we have a bad name. This has been going on for decades, though right, this is the same thing with the charlatan tarot readers that existed in the 70s way, well before the internet was.
Speaker 3:Now. You have a whole entire culture.
Speaker 2:Every day.
Speaker 3:There's another thing about oh, they're influencing this or they're doing, or back and forth, yeah.
Speaker 2:Do you know, by the way, that in many, many states it is still illegal to fortune tell? Yeah, it is. In many places it is illegal to fortune tell, to practice magic in more of the magician sense, sleight of hand, that sort of thing.
Speaker 4:Right.
Speaker 2:Because it is. It's considered a con or a hustle in many instances and most of those laws exist because people are taken advantage of, Not for any other reason. I'm fairly certain that when you see, like the psychic fairs and some of the events where you know there's somebody there and it's free, there's no issue.
Speaker 3:Or you don't again on some of them fairs if you're paying one price and going in and it's just a bunch of local people doing it.
Speaker 2:Everybody's like it's fine.
Speaker 3:This is fine. That ain't this big of a deal, but this is just. It's just a bunch of local people doing it. Everybody's like it's fine.
Speaker 2:This is fine. That ain't this big of a deal, but this is just. But, this, ooh, it's scary.
Speaker 3:I would trust the psychic fairs first.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, I mean.
Speaker 3:To be quite honest with you.
Speaker 2:I feel like anyone. Here's the way I look at it, and I think this is really how we sum up this episode A psychic that targets you is not a psychic you want. Right, you should have to seek out.
Speaker 3:No, I just got this image of this creepy person just hanging over your shoulder.
Speaker 2:But that's it. But that's kind of what they do. That's sort of how social media makes it possible, right, but the way most of us traditionally have a relationship again, with a seer, a card reader, a psychic, a medium, right, any of these arts, we sought them out and, on average, most of the people I know that are in craft and stuff like that. Most of them don't get fortunes read no, no, but on the off again, don't do it as a.
Speaker 3:If they're going to a psychic fair and they're doing a donation to a temple, they'll do that.
Speaker 2:But but on the off chance that we do, and some of us do throughout the community, and that's fine, but typically it's word of mouth, it's reference. You are and, and you contact these people and they have a wait list that's months and months and months long. That's what you want. Yes, that's someone who potentially has a gift that is actually valuable, a psychic that is constantly popping up in your feed or wanting to. No, that is so backwards.
Speaker 3:People with gifts like that tend to still stay most of the ethical psychics, I think, would not actually doubt they're divulging personal information about people they also are not.
Speaker 2:They are more specific than that and there's no possible way that they could reach through the ether of the internet just yes, not happening, no, not happening.
Speaker 2:Some of these psychics that have the huge waiting lists. Part of that process is the very fact that they say I need you to send me something. Yeah, I don't care if it's a napkin that you use at the you know dinner last night, but I need you to send me something so that I can form a spiritual bond I mean, I know, magic seems weird and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:But for me to sit here and say but some senses only go so far yeah, I know you know I know this, this to me, like I said, it's kind of part one of this series of sort of sort of going what the hell is going on out there, what is happening and largely, what is social media fueling in which community they're? I know, I know we're going to explore more of it.
Speaker 3:All right, let me go get some more.
Speaker 2:All right, you do that.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening. Join us next week for another episode. Pagan Coffee Talk is brought to you by Life Temple and Seminary. Please visit us at lifetempleseminaryorg for more information, as well as links to our social media.
Speaker 4:Facebook, discord, twitter, youtube and Reddit. It is the end of our day, so walk with me till morning breaks. And so it is the end of our day. So walk with me till morning.
