Discover the nuanced path of spiritual ascension in the witching realm, where initiation is not a mere matter of course completion but a profound journey of personal evolution. This episode pulls back the veil on why not every witch is ready for initiation right after class, and why that's perfectly okay. As we traverse the criteria for ascending within traditional groups, it becomes clear that genuine spiritual maturity and an intimate grasp of sacred practices take precedence over eagerness. We unpack the concept of commanding magical and elemental forces with the same authority and conviction one must possess when directing a beloved pet—because in this craft, assertiveness is key.
Journey with us as we explore the hallmarks of spiritual maturity essential for clergy and mentors alike, illuminated by the parallels between the growth of musicians and spiritual leaders. Handling the delicate balance between personal life and spiritual commitments is dissected, offering wisdom on how to effectively manage time and prioritize without losing sight of one's inner growth. Reflect on the transition from the tempest of youthful emotions to the calm, collected demeanor that marks true adulthood and spiritual practice. Grab your favorite coffee and join the conversation.
Discover the nuanced path of spiritual ascension in the witching realm, where initiation is not a mere matter of course completion but a profound journey of personal evolution. This episode pulls back the veil on why not every witch is ready for initiation right after class, and why that's perfectly okay. As we traverse the criteria for ascending within traditional groups, it becomes clear that genuine spiritual maturity and an intimate grasp of sacred practices take precedence over eagerness. We unpack the concept of commanding magical and elemental forces with the same authority and conviction one must possess when directing a beloved pet—because in this craft, assertiveness is key.
Journey with us as we explore the hallmarks of spiritual maturity essential for clergy and mentors alike, illuminated by the parallels between the growth of musicians and spiritual leaders. Handling the delicate balance between personal life and spiritual commitments is dissected, offering wisdom on how to effectively manage time and prioritize without losing sight of one's inner growth. Reflect on the transition from the tempest of youthful emotions to the calm, collected demeanor that marks true adulthood and spiritual practice. Grab your favorite coffee and join the conversation.
Welcome to Pagan Coffee Talk. If you enjoy our content, please consider donating and following our socials. Now here are your hosts, lady Abba and Lord Knight.
Speaker 2:
So, lord Knight, we had something super adorable and very funny happen the other day. We did Well, we have, you know, we have some things coming up in Temple's calendar that are pretty important, but we had the mother of one of our recent students say, and I quote how does one flunk out of which school? And it was in relation to one of her classmates who she took first degree classes with, with and with you, and it I mean it was funny. Let's, let's just be honest, right, it's just damn funny, right. How does one flunk out of which school? I mean, what are we hogwarts like on? It's great, but it got us thinking about you know the criteria for receiving your first degree and what happens after you finish your first degree classes and what some of the possibilities might be. And the reality is, for traditional groups, just because you take the classes does not guarantee that you will advance.
Speaker 3:
No, getting initiation is a spiritual decision.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, and not everyone is going to be at the same place when that class finishes.
Speaker 4:
Same place when that class finishes now I want to really make a point here of saying that no one flunked, no one failed no, no one got a big letter f on a, on a grade or anything.
Speaker 2:
Because when your group does not provide you with a summons and or say you, you know what you're going to be next in line for initiation, it simply means not now, not now.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, it doesn't mean never, it's not a hard, no, no, it's a no for right now.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, it means at this moment, you are not ready. So I think it's a really good topic to explore for people because, let's be honest, right, it's painful, it can hurt and for anyone who's in that situation, it can hurt their heart and it can seem like, you know, they've invested their time, they've dedicated themselves to the studies. What did I do wrong? Well, maybe nothing. Right, nothing. It's not a right or wrong, it's just a matter of have you shown the spiritual maturity, growth and dedication that the church is looking for in a priest or a priestess? Right, that's the key, right there. Right, it's to become clergy, and some people, it takes many, many years. I've known people who took first degree classes one, two, three times, yes, before they were ready. Some people we've had walk in our doors. I mean, the classes are almost a formality, they were ready. Some people we've had walk in our doors. I mean, the classes are almost a formality, they were ready already. Right, but we have to teach them our tradition.
Speaker 3:
We've also had a lot of people that come in, took classes and are still just hanging around, never asked, never came to us. Because you've got to remember part of this process is I had to ask for my initiation.
Speaker 2:
That's a really good point. Yeah, there's initiative that people have to take and not everyone takes it.
Speaker 3:
It's not like. You don't know the initiative there and what you have to do, yeah. So again, this is a choice upon your part. If you're not doing that, you're not going to get advanced to begin with.
Speaker 2:
Yeah Well, I mean, we've talked a bit about the roles of right, what? What are the roles of a priest and a priestess and what does that? Does that mean in the grand scheme of things? But really, I think this is a good precursor topic to that. What? What does it mean if you're studying and you are not given a summons and or invited to an initiation, and or if you've requested your initiation and it has been denied?
Speaker 3:
Well, first. Well, one of the things we have to look at is what is our standard? What do we expect out of a first degree?
Speaker 2:
It's the first thing we have to look at Right and, mind you, this is what we expect. Other groups might be completely different, right yeah, all right.
Speaker 3:
So again that the most first degrees. We're going to expect you to be able to at least cast circle, a first degree circle, and be to make it even more that you understand what you're doing and why you're doing oh, absolutely the mechanics, right it's not just going through the motions, it's understanding what's behind those motions.
Speaker 2:
I think there is a certain amount of authority that has to come from that person.
Speaker 3:
Yes.
Speaker 2:
A certain amount of maturity.
Speaker 3:
There needs to be a certain amount of self-confidence, not arrogance.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, that's the irony of it, right, it's confident, not arrogant. Yeah, it's that's the irony of it, right, it's confident, not arrogant. And and sometimes that's a hard line because, right, the ego is the enemy, but we need to be able to stand tall and be sure of our skills and our knowledge and what we're doing and, yeah, and how we're doing it yeah, um, magic doesn't respond to weak.
Speaker 2:
No, let's be honest, elementals don't respond to it. Ancestors like nothing. Nothing responds to weakness, and I think that that is important for people to understand. I mean, I I always find it funny that sometimes, when we're doing circle casting classes with with beginners, the one of the things we have to man like almost drill into, be louder, louder, more assertive. Are you asking me or are you telling me? What are you doing, right?
Speaker 3:
yeah, the. The argument is is how do you summon an?
Speaker 2:
elemental if you're sitting there going well, hell and well, well, I think I liken it to a dog, right, yeah, because it's like you know, like baller. Baller, he's a very rambunctious boy, so are mine. You can't look at a dog like right, you can't go sit. Sit Like no, it's not a question, sit.
Speaker 3:
You have to. Again, you are taking on the responsibility of this. You have to be able to command and control this and it's yes, and.
Speaker 2:
And chaos ensues when there is doubt, yes, and when there is, um, it's one of the reasons why we I mean, I know, for me personally, if I'm not in the right headspace, I'm like hell. No, I'm not doing that because, yeah, doubt will creep in or, you know, being tired will affect the way. There's so many factors that affect our performance. Yeah, but you know, for people that are very new, yeah, it's, it's. Look, I'm big on words, right and it's. I had to just this past full moon, it was.
Speaker 2:
It was an interesting ritual for me because you were not there no, and I was conducting it with our neophytes and I used it as an opportunity to sort of reiterate circle casting and you know, know, do a little bit of training. And part of what we were focused on in that ritual was the passage in the read. I need no finely worded right to know my seed and I believe that that's absolutely correct. But if you are reading the Charge of the God, the charge of the goddess doing quarter calls, whatever, you are speaking in a ritualistic setting. Man, you've got to connect with those words and what they mean. If you're not like, if you're just going to, and I've heard that.
Yeah, ben Stein. Yeah, it's interesting, because when we talk about, I mean, yeah, just the charge. Right, here are the words of the star goddess, the dust of whose feet are the hosts of heaven, whose body encircles the universe. When you start, really, I who am the beauty of the moon amongst the stars, right, there's a connection that has to be there. There's a connection that has to be there. If the speaker does not understand, absorb or resonate with those words personally, then how does everyone else connect with it? I don't see that being possible. I don't either. There's even an aspect of ritual, right, look, sometimes we have to use papers, we have to read, we have to bring our books of shadows in. That's fine, it's a lot. Hey, sometimes rituals are complicated and there's a lot of words and we can't remember them all. But I have like a it's a travel copy stand is what I call it it's like a holder that you can put a recipe book on, right.
Speaker 2:
So you can stand it up, it's like a holder that you can put a recipe book on Right.
Speaker 3:
So you can stand it up. It's like a mini podium.
Speaker 2:
Yes, yes, yes, yes, there you go, thank you. I was searching for the word. Yeah, it's like it is, it's like a mini podium and I can put it on the altar. But you know, the benefit of that is right. We're upright, we're not looking down, we're not, you know, slumped over reading into the altar. We can read to the circle and that's important.
Speaker 3:
I mean making those eye contacts and stuff like that. It helps a lot in ritual and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:
It takes a while for people to learn that, though, to gain that confidence, but also that, like, look, what I've seen a lot of is is you know, there's nervousness, right, people are always nervous when they're new to certain things, especially when they're afraid of making a mistake. Cause who isn't? Everybody's afraid? Right, I don't want to disappoint you, I don't want to make a mistake, okay, fine, but sometimes you just have to go about something with enough conviction to say you know what, if I make a mistake, I'm gonna own it, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna continue, I'm gonna finish what I started and not allow the mistake to devastate me, it's the same thing I hear talking to lord oswin.
Speaker 3:
It's the same thing music singers, doers do Absolutely they mess up and they know enough and have enough confidence to kind of cover them up and keep going, but yet they still recognize where in the world they messed up.
Speaker 2:
Right, a musician can kind of self-correct, you know, and for those of us who are non-music, you know somebody's going to catch it. Of course there's always some smarty pants right in the audience who's going to be like he skipped a note. But yeah, sue me, you get up here and do it. But that's the kind of confidence that has to be there. Yes, if we don't have that, then oh boy, I mean it.
Speaker 3:
It can be a pretty tragic event, but again these, these are things we can't necessarily teach you, and you sort of have to learn on your own.
Speaker 2:
At the same time, well, the other thing is right time. We cannot give you the gift of time, nor can we force you to give it to us. No, someone has to be able and willing to be an active participant in their faith and in their continued learning. And if time constraints are an issue, then, yeah, you might have to be prepared that your spiritual leaders are going to go.
Speaker 3:
You're not ready, no, not now, I mean because we do get those people. Sometimes we get these people that come in. They're young and they haven't finished being a warrior or whatever before becoming a sage or a wise person.
Speaker 2:
I mean, I hate to say it but like, look, let's look at parenting. I think there's good reason why a lot of the active clergy in any group are childless, because it's hard until your children get to a certain age and they're a little bit more self-sufficient and they are not quite as dependent on you. Yeah, it can be very difficult to divide your time Right. Sometimes you just have to say you know what I got to focus on being a mom or a dad, or you know that will come later.
Speaker 3:
Right. The fact is is that these aspects of life are important to craft too.
Speaker 2:
Of course we're not going to. We're not going to fault anyone for that being the case, but we do appreciate, again, the maturity of being able to recognize that's where my priority needs to lie.
Speaker 3:
Right.
Speaker 2:
I also think we've seen instances where sometimes neophytes just have a particular hang up, be it in their teaching, be it in their spiritual path, be it with their emotions Right, there's just something that's a block or a barrier that they have not yet addressed or done enough work to start tearing it down.
Speaker 3:
I mean. An example of this is, I've seen lately, just an example, nothing. Hard fact is that some people don't like some of the words we use, and because we use that word, they don't like this concept.
Speaker 2:
Right.
Speaker 3:
Which then we have to go back and say, okay, this word that you have a problem with has nothing to do with the concept.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, ironically right, words are just words. It's the meaning behind them. Any word can mean anything. Words inherently on their own are not bad nor good. Words are just words, it's what we associate with them, right? So if you've negatively associated something with a word, well I hate to say it, that's on you, but that, yeah, these are the things that cause problems. But I think I think like emotions are a big one, like we need to know that a first degree can control their emotions well enough to function.
Speaker 3:
This again is that real part of our religion, yeah, us being able to turn our emotions on and off the triangle as we need yeah, well, I don't even see it as turning them on and off.
Speaker 2:
I think it's knowing what's appropriate, right, I think it's it's understood. It's whether or not you are emotionally volatile.
Speaker 3:
I'm going to say this from a guy point of view. It is understanding the ability to do something even though you're scared to do it.
Speaker 2:
Sure, and if you're a woman, it's doing something, even if your head is occupied elsewhere. Right, you are distracted, even if your head is occupied elsewhere. Right, you are distracted. And right, you have other emotional things taking place. But you can separate, you can put those things aside. Right, we always say it Leave your baggage at the door. That's part of baggage. Yeah, one needs or wants a priest or a priestess that is prone to anger outbursts or crying fits or anxiety spell, right, no, this is that is not good. It's a tough one, right, because, like I go, okay, I have a certain amount of anxiety, but I have worked on it. Right, I have, I have worked with therapists, I have a psychiatrist, I have medications if I have worked on it. Right, I have, I have worked with therapists, I have a psychiatrist, I have medications If I need it. It is a controlled problem.
Speaker 3:
I have done the work so that it does not affect to where you can at least manage it, to where you can function.
Speaker 2:
Right In a weird way. I think part of it is that we need to know that our first degrees can take care of themselves in spiritual space and in the basic decision making that clergy needs to be able to make. There is, I mean, you can call it wisdom, if you want right, you can call it instinct. But yeah, there's that intelligence. Can it be developed? Absolutely, absolutely, because not everyone's, you know, gifted with that, especially when it comes to, just again, the instinctual components of things.
Speaker 3:
Right, I mean, when you think about it this way, when you were a kid, how well could you control your emotions?
Speaker 2:
Oh God, please, when I was a kid, let's talk about my 20s. I was a fucking nut.
Speaker 3:
Well, I mean, when you're a kid, you scrape your knee. It's really not that bad, but most kids will sit there and bawl like they just lost a limb, absolutely, absolutely. So again, this is a maturing thing that everybody learns. It's just when you're dealing in craft we have to know that you really have it.
Speaker 2:
Look, that's hard for us. Please understand that If your spiritual leader is again having to say, no, you're not ready. Don't think that that's easy and don't think we take that lightly. Chances are. It pains them a little bit to have to say it.
Speaker 3:
Well, if you think about it this way I'm trying not to sound completely weird about this but the time and the effort to sit down and do a class to train people, All right, I'm sorry, I'm not going to put all that time and effort on someone I think is going to fail.
Speaker 2:
I want someone who has potential to begin with, but that's it. But we want to cultivate your success. So if we believe that an additional six months a year will benefit and will have that effect and set you up for success, then so be it.
Speaker 3:
Well, and one of the ways I also look at it is is if you have initiation this year, it's going to be next year. In other words, what's one more year, Right?
Speaker 2:
It's exactly Um and but you know, but we've seen, not only in our temple but in other churches, where it can take somebody five, six years or more to get their first.
Speaker 3:
Yes, and even longer to get their second or third.
Speaker 2:
And there's two different types of people with that. There are those who stick it out and who keep striving and keep working and continue their own growth, and there are those who become bitter and they become angry and they become they. They turn it on us Right, we become the target because we're and, unfortunately, when that happens, we go. Hmm, maybe we were correct in our assumption.
Speaker 2:
Because, that is not the best reaction to have to that situation. Again, no one is saying no, we're saying not now. Patience is a virtue. Patience is part of spiritual growth. It does not happen overnight. So what else, though? What do you think? You've seen and worked with more students and had far more initiates than I have. What are some of the other things that have made you go? Well, maybe we should wait a little bit I mean pretty much.
Speaker 3:
What you said is it's being able to control if you are losing your temper and yeah, and these. These are all the signs of things we need to worry about inside temple to begin with. Because, again, we are still looking for the best priest and priestesses we can find.
Speaker 2:
Oh, I've got a good one. Oh Lord, I know, I remember this from my own time as a neophyte. There are those that learn how to function in circle, and there are those who just continually get high off of it see, that's a little bit of a different thing but.
Speaker 2:
But if you think about right it is. But that person who is still very much affected, to that extent inside of spiritual space that they cannot function. Right, they're walking into walls, they become a bit ditzy, they're, you know they're, they're a fire hazard, literally like you have to make sure they don't burn themselves. This is a warning sign, good indicator. Right, that person can't.
Speaker 3:
You don't want that person officiating no, I mean because, again, these are signs of people who are not necessarily doing their meditations like they're supposed to.
Speaker 2:
But I think the thing is, if we see that we have to go, this person would not be able to look out for the benefit of the group and the whole. Yeah, in that spiritual environment, never mind the mechanics, never mind the mechanics, never mind the circle casting.
Speaker 3:
Well, again you have this selfish attitude because you're getting high off the energy. Right, right, it's all about yourself, yeah. And again, which is still a bad sign for a priest or a priestess.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right.
Speaker 3:
And I completely agree with you. Yes, it is a warning sign and things, people, you should look for.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I think what's interesting is I have found for myself now, I mean after so much time in spiritual space, there are physical things that I will notice, but my brain is clear, my brain is not affected by spiritual space like right, we all. We all notice the heat. Yes, it raised. I mean, my god circle will raise the temperature. If you're not getting a good, I would say four to ten degree raise in the immediate area. Something ain't right.
Speaker 3:
You said it, I didn't.
Speaker 2:
Because, my goodness, does it generate some heat. How could it not? So, yeah, I noticed that because I'm like, oh man, ok, it's hot in here. But you know, you know what I mean when I say this. Right, I still, I'm still aware of everything happening on the outside. I'm still aware of, but on the outside I'm still aware of, but it seems distant.
Speaker 2:
It does, it does, but I know enough to know what I have to do or not do in response to it ignore it or deal with it, right. It's those sorts of decision-making and I think you know, for me personally, this is one of the reasons why I think, initially, circle casting indoors is kind of important. I couldn't have imagined doing it out in the woods or in nature to start. I don't know. I'm like, oh, I would have been a basket case. Why? I don't know. I feel like I look at the indoor environment and I go okay, right, there's no tripping hazards, the floor is flat. You know, it's things like that.
Speaker 3:
Hence the reason we used to put bells on the end of our elders, so they wouldn't wander off into the woods. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:
I mean, we're probably still going to have to do that with you. But seriously, like I could see if I was outside in that I would have been, you know, like a stumbling drunk possibly. Oh yeah, and I don't know about you, but I don't think face planting in the middle of circles sounds like a fun thing. You probably wouldn't feel it as much, but still, you know, I don't know, it's just yeah, it wouldn't be the first weird thing to happen in Circle?
Speaker 2:
No, definitely not, definitely not. But there is also the decision-making abilities right, knowing how to pivot, knowing how to roll with a potential change, yeah, um it's beginning to show the difference between knowing something and understanding something.
Speaker 3:
Knowing something, you can use it. When you start to understand it, you can manipulate it to your advantage.
Speaker 2:
Ain't that the truth and this?
Speaker 3:
is one of the things that we are looking for in first degrees the ability to manipulate.
Speaker 2:
That was brilliant. Yeah, I think we'll just stop there, because that was well put.
Speaker 1:
Thanks for listening. Join us next week for another episode. Pagan Coffee Talk is brought to you by Life Temple and Seminary. Please visit us at lifetempleseminaryorg for more information, as well as links to our social media Facebook, discord, twitter, youtube and Reddit.
Speaker 4:
We travel down this trodden path, the maze of stone and mire. Just hold my hand as we pass by a sea of blazing fires. And so it is the end of our day, so walk with me till morning breaks. And so it is the end of our day. So walk with me till morning.
