Magic or Delusion? Part 2 of 2

In this episode of Pagan Coffee Talk, Lady Keegan and Lord Chase Night Smith continue their candid discussion on one of the most important—and often misunderstood—aspects of witchcraft: the line between delusion and reality.

From blaming guardian angels or demons for everyday events to avoiding personal responsibility, this episode dives into how false beliefs and magical thinking can distort a practitioner’s understanding of both magic and themselves. The hosts explore how true witches strive to stay grounded, asking: what is actually happening versus what we want to believe is happening?

A major focus of this conversation is accountability in spellwork. Through humorous and real-world examples, they break down what happens when practitioners don’t fully understand—or clearly define—what they’re asking for in their magic. Because sometimes… the spell does work—just not in the way you expected.

Key topics include:

•  The difference between delusion, belief, and objective reality
•  Why taking responsibility is essential in witchcraft 
•  How unclear intent can lead to unexpected (but accurate) spell results
•  The dangers of overconfidence and “just enough knowledge to be dangerous”
•  Why traditional Wiccan training emphasizes discipline, experience, and learning through hardship
•  The reality that magic doesn’t replace personal effort—it works alongside it

The episode also addresses frustrations within the community, particularly around the rise of shortcut-based practices, social media trends, and reliance on others to fix self-created problems. Lady Keegan and Lord Chase Night Smith offer a grounded, traditionalist perspective: if you claim the title of witch, you must also take responsibility for your actions—magical and mundane.

Blending humor with hard truths, this episode is a must-listen for anyone seeking a realistic, disciplined, and no-nonsense approach to witchcraft.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Welcome to Pegging Coffee Talk, a traditional Wiccan podcast where we will discuss topics affecting the Pegging community from a traditionalist perspective. The topics we discuss are picked from our magical hat and the discussions around scriptures. The talk will be led by Lady Egan's second degree priesthood. It's joined by Lord Chase Knight Smith, elder and high priest of third degree. Pagan Coffee Talk is brought to you by Life Temple and Silmarin.

SPEAKER_03 0:37

Welcome to Pagan Coffee Talk. I'm Keegan, and as always, Lord Knight. We are continuing our conversation from last week.

SPEAKER_02 0:59

Oh, you know, if my guardian angel wasn't there, or oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:05

Blame the other guy.

SPEAKER_02 1:06

Well, it's either blame the other guy or it's always some higher force.

SPEAKER_03 1:13

It's never your fault.

SPEAKER_02 1:15

Right. It's never your skill. It's never your fault. It's it, you know, regardless positive or negative, you got these people going around that think everything they do, there's some higher being at work there. The guardian angel.

unknown 1:30

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:30

Or the devil. Or the devil. Right. Oh, I didn't get hit by the car. Oh. Well, you know, my guardian angel. I do you know, I do get hit by the car. It's Satan.

SPEAKER_03 1:42

Oh God, no way. You're going down another road.

SPEAKER_02 1:46

I mean, to me, this is that delusion. Um because these are also the same people that don't accept responsibilities for their actions one way or the other.

SPEAKER_03 1:57

That you're talking about taking responsibility. This is a total different podcast that we're going to talk about because I've got issues with I have issues.

SPEAKER_02 2:08

I mean, my point here is isn't that just as delusional to think that me or you or anybody so important to where deity or some higher being has to follow you around all day.

SPEAKER_03 2:23

Because they have nothing better.

SPEAKER_02 2:24

To either make your life happy or miserable. Right. And again, and I hate to be this way, but I mean it's kind of like the ancient aliens conspiracy thing. Humans are not smart enough to move a damn rock without an alien telling them to do it.

SPEAKER_03 2:42

It is the same thing. You're right. You're right.

SPEAKER_02 2:44

I mean, we're talking again, it's a it's this delusion. That's the delusion. Not believing in one's skills. And then you do have those people who completely believe in themselves to the point to where, oh my God, they say one more arrogant little thing, I will bash their head in. Get my axe. Because we've all met them people, they're out there. You know, hey, I'm so smart, I'm the greatest, blah, blah. Shut up. Yeah. Not going there. You know, they they're out there. You know? But then on the other hand, just because someone talks this way doesn't necessarily mean they're wrong either.

SPEAKER_03 3:32

What?

SPEAKER_02 3:38

Just because somebody right. Just because a person's arrogant, their actions and responsibilities for themselves might be what me and you would consider morally right.

SPEAKER_03 3:53

So subjective reality.

SPEAKER_02 3:55

Right. I mean, again, you might have a CEO of a company who every time gets on TV sounds completely an arrogant, oh God, this guy's really believes in himself.

SPEAKER_03 4:06

Right. Right.

SPEAKER_02 4:08

But then on the other hand. Yes, he is his greatest fan. But then on the other hand, he is operating a million dollar company. Hmm.

SPEAKER_03 4:18

Don't make him less of an asshole, though.

SPEAKER_02 4:20

Don't make it no, again, don't make him less of an asshole. It just means there's still some truth there. Versus what's being done and what's coming out of their mouth is sometimes completely opposite of each other.

SPEAKER_03 4:31

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 4:33

Maybe. Maybe. I've had some bosses, they were some pretty arrogant bosses. But when it came down to it, were they arrogant or just confident in what they were doing? It's a fine line. There's a fine line there. And I've seen some people come in and go, okay, and like for me, I've been in management for quite a number of years. Some people look at me and go, oh God, he's an arrogant little person.

SPEAKER_03 5:00

Right.

SPEAKER_02 5:00

Other people look at me going, No, he's actually quite confident. Knows what he's doing, knows what he's talking about, and he's pushing for better things here and there. Same person doing the same action, but two different viewpoints there.

SPEAKER_03 5:15

Subjective reality.

SPEAKER_02 5:17

Right. Here's the delusion. People delude, they want to see what they want to see. Where I believe real witches try, again, try their best to see what in the world's really going on. Yeah, we try. We try. This is how we try to get out to stay out of that delusion. What's really going on, what was really said.

SPEAKER_03 5:40

Right. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 5:42

You know, what was said compared to what was actually done.

SPEAKER_03 5:46

What's happening here?

SPEAKER_02 5:48

Yeah, what what's what is actually happening here? What is it that you really want? Because the majority of times when we start asking questions like this, we're working under the assumption that the person that we're talking to hasn't really took the time to figure out what it is that they really want.

SPEAKER_03 6:05

And uh I think is another important thing with magic. Are you sure you know what you'll want? Find out what you want.

SPEAKER_02 6:13

Because it right. Because again, if you're not careful, you might get exactly what you want.

SPEAKER_03 6:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:19

Or you might get it. Yeah, I didn't mean like this. I mean, I've told this story before, you know, where the woman wanted a clean slate. I think it was like really for work or something, so she casts a spell. So she loses her job, her husband leaves her, she loses her house, her kids no longer will talk to her. Then she finally goes to one of her elders and goes, Here's the spell I cast. And now I ain't got a home or a job. You know, I'm about to lose my car. What did I do wrong? You didn't do nothing wrong. You asked for a clean start. It's the best working spell ever. This is the best working spell ever.

unknown 7:02

Congratulations.

SPEAKER_02 7:03

Congratulations. I ain't seen nothing better than this. I mean, really. Really? Yeah, at the rate is going, you ain't even gonna have clothes. That's fantastic. You're gonna have to start with first figuring out a way to get a job to get clothes.

SPEAKER_03 7:18

Good working spell. Good job.

SPEAKER_02 7:20

Good job. Hey, you get a whole new wardrobe by the time it's all over with.

SPEAKER_03 7:26

The spell worked. See, and then well, that's not what I meant. Yeah, well, see, that's not what you said. You said you wanted to clean slate. The universe provided you with such. Right. How about a thank you? How about a thank you?

SPEAKER_02 7:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:42

You know?

SPEAKER_02 7:42

Yeah, know what you want. Know what you want. You might want that co-worker to be a little bit nicer to you at work. So you cast the spell. What's the big thing now? These freaking dumbass honey jars.

SPEAKER_03 7:57

Look at you. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 8:00

I'm a little done. All right. And then you sweeten up that coworker, right? And they start talking to you more and become buddy buddy. And then you're sitting back going, Oh my god, can this person be mad at me again and never talk to me again?

SPEAKER_03 8:15

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:16

Because they're annoying. Yep. Uh, but this is what you asked for. You wanted them to be sweet on you. Well, now they're hitting on me. Well, you asked them to be nice to you. They're nice. They're nice.

SPEAKER_03 8:30

Congratulations.

SPEAKER_02 8:31

Congratulations.

SPEAKER_03 8:34

Know what you want.

SPEAKER_02 8:36

You're gonna have people outside of our teachings and stuff like that come up to you and tell you stuff like this, and they expect me to feel sympathy for them. Why?

SPEAKER_03 8:46

Because you're their spiritual leader and that's your job.

SPEAKER_02 8:49

And to solve their problem. Why?

SPEAKER_03 8:53

Because they're too stupid to do it themselves.

SPEAKER_02 8:55

Hey, wasn't it you that sat there and go, hey, I am a powerful, young, vibrant baby witch.

SPEAKER_03 9:04

God! Who's in our tradition ever.

SPEAKER_02 9:09

All right. Fine. I'm sure you could repeat this for everybody. What happens once you get your first degree and you come up to me with some problem like this?

SPEAKER_03 9:21

You're a witch. Handle it.

SPEAKER_02 9:23

Handle it. And we don't you're again, if you're calling yourself a witch or a baby witch or whatever, or a newbie, if you got that word witch in there and you come up to me and you go, Yeah, I'm a witch, and blah, blah, blah. I'm solitary, da da da, but I had to spell go wrong. You're a fucking witch. Handle it. Go handle your shit. Yeah. You want me to come in and clean that mess up for you. But they don't want to listen to you beforehand. No, they don't want to listen to us beforehand and they don't want to listen to us afterwards.

SPEAKER_03 9:56

Just fix it.

SPEAKER_02 9:57

Just fix it.

SPEAKER_03 9:58

Fix it.

SPEAKER_02 10:00

Just for them to come back six months later and go, Oh, yeah, I cast this other spell and this is what happened. Can you fix that? No. And again, a lot of people wonder why in the world, traditionalists, can be a little short with some of these people out there.

SPEAKER_03 10:19

It all started with the honey jars.

SPEAKER_02 10:22

Well, no, it didn't start with the honey jars. It started with this oh, I can cast any spell I want, blah, blah, blah. And because I'm a powerful and I did a self-dedication, and I have read all these books by this author, this author. I have I've ordered the whole entire Llewellyn publishing catalog. Yeah, look at me go. And read every 50,000 books. I know more than anybody else. Now I can go cast a spell, and then it fucking flies into your face, and then you're in front of a traditionalist going, What happened? Yep. You know, how do I fix this? And then you want to pitch, well, y'all are always so arrogant and rude and gatekeeping. Well, I'm sorry, if you're gonna fuck up your life with just this little bit of knowledge, what the fuck are you gonna do if you actually had more?

SPEAKER_03 11:17

That's because it is a little bit of knowledge. It's just enough to be dangerous.

SPEAKER_02 11:22

It's just enough to be dangerous. You don't even realize how much you don't know. Yep. And then you want to sit there and argue with me that I should come fix your problem because you didn't want to listen to me begin with. You didn't want no fucking training. You want to sit there on your perch and go, I'm better than anybody else because I follow this religion. And you know, I don't need anybody to confine me because you know, religion is a little controlling, it's a little rigid.

SPEAKER_03 11:52

Yeah, don't tell me how to practice.

SPEAKER_02 11:54

Yeah, don't tell me how to practice, don't tell me how to do shit. Don't know, no, I don't need to hear it because I'm a powerful. And then when the shit hits the fan and you come to us, what else do you think we're gonna say to y'all? Oh, yeah, baby. Oh, here, we'll fix it. No. Nope. You made this mess, you clean it up.

SPEAKER_03 12:17

Because we are on your part doesn't constitute an emergency on mine. Let the world borrow an eye.

SPEAKER_02 12:29

You know, I'm sorry, but you didn't listen to me when, you know, I tried to tell you not to do this. When I got on to Red and go, hey, hey, hey, maybe I'll need to start thinking about oh no, no, no, no, no. You're a traditionalist, you're rude. You're gatekeeping. Gatekeeper to stop. Boomer, go away. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 12:46

How dare you talk about medication?

SPEAKER_02 12:48

But yet, every damn last one of these people on here, all of a sudden, in the depths of night, behind closed doors, behind, you know, hey, I got a VPN, I gotta make it look like I'm coming from India, whatever, and I'm gonna have to contact this person in the middle of the night going, uh, yeah, I fucked up, and what do I do? Because I can't let none of my friends know that I'm going to a traditionalist to figure out how in the hell to fix this problem. Damn. And you want us to go, oh, really? Uh, being the first one to go back out on Reddit going, hey, guess what? This person screwed this up. Yeah, you would. Yeah. And came to a traditionalist after sitting here on these forms and all this other place and saying they don't need us.

SPEAKER_03 13:38

Because they don't want to work.

SPEAKER_02 13:40

You don't need us until you have a problem. Until you haven't done your meditations or whatever, and you've got a spirit attached to you. You got some bad mojo going on. Because you do not know the price you have to pay to make sure your will is strong enough that these things do not affect you whatsoever.

SPEAKER_03 14:05

No, they don't know what price they have to pay, and they're not willing to pay it. Don't want to do any work.

SPEAKER_02 14:11

You know, not that I'm giving a secret out or anything here, but I want to tell you right now, and something every traditionalist knows. You know, for y'all who are not in the traditional thing, we believe that we must suffer to learn.

SPEAKER_03 14:24

Yep. You always forget that part though. Oh, that's right. I must be learning a lot.

SPEAKER_02 14:32

Must be learning a lot. Because we learn through suffrage. We learn through going through pain and agony and through those dark emotions. Yeah. Not that's the goal. Right. You cannot sit there and just be, oh, I'll light love 24-7.

SPEAKER_03 14:52

Oh, good lord, no.

SPEAKER_02 14:54

It don't work that way. Uh-uh. Because again, if you're over there 24-7, the whole nine yards, and thinking that the world is rainbows and lollipops and don't really matter, you are going to be sorely disappointed.

SPEAKER_03 15:10

Oh, yeah. Yeah, you have to have some reality, some objective reality.

SPEAKER_02 15:17

Right. Because the first time something bad happens, I don't care how light it is, it will be absolutely devastating for that person.

SPEAKER_03 15:27

Yeah. Tough shit. You live in your world. I see.

SPEAKER_02 15:31

If you're used to having parents or whatever, like bulldoze their way through all the problems, you know what? There's a certain point to where that don't happen anymore. And then you are going to be so disappointed and crying in a milk or whatever. Crying in the milk. And whining. Don't want to hear it.

SPEAKER_03 15:54

I don't know. You're not always hard. I mean, I'm messed up, and I've came to you and said this, this, this, and you went, Well, did you learn something from it? Did you learn right?

SPEAKER_02 16:05

But there's a difference there. All right, you're being trained. You already believe some of the stuff I believe in.

SPEAKER_03 16:14

Yeah. Yeah. Most of it, actually.

SPEAKER_02 16:16

Right. When you come to me and go, hey, I cast a spell, here's here and here's how it horribly went wrong.

unknown 16:23

Horribly, horribly wrong.

SPEAKER_03 16:26

Horribly.

SPEAKER_02 16:27

You would also be sitting back going, but did it really?

SPEAKER_03 16:34

Did it work?

SPEAKER_02 16:36

Or did it work a little too good?

SPEAKER_03 16:38

Too good. I always cleaned up my mess.

SPEAKER_02 16:44

Right. Most of the people in our tradition understands this. I understand people are gonna fuck up. And there's no problem in that. I'm not gonna sit there and go and get on somebody's case because they messed up. I'm getting getting on their case if they didn't learn something from it.

SPEAKER_03 17:01

Or at least how to clean up a mess. I've gotten rid of that. I'm great at cleaning up messes. That's my expertise.

SPEAKER_02 17:15

But I mean, are we answering this question? There is a difference between delusion and reality.

SPEAKER_03 17:20

And we keep our toes on that line.

SPEAKER_02 17:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 17:26

And so I what I do is I'll call you or whatever and be like, okay, are you seeing this like I'm seeing this? Or or am I have I crossed that line?

SPEAKER_02 17:36

One insane person looked at the other insane person going, hey, I feel quite farther with that conversation.

SPEAKER_03 17:49

You know, it it that comes from one person being delusional into a party. Get more people involved in a young woo. Nobody wants to be delusional alone. Woo-hoo.

SPEAKER_02 18:16

What is that? Misery loves company? Misery loves company, don't it though? But laughter is a party.

SPEAKER_03 18:26

Yeah. Oh God. Yeah. So we keep their toes right there on the edge.

SPEAKER_02 18:40

Right there on the edge. I mean, while casting spells, we know they work. I've seen them work. But it's one of them things. It's like you're gonna get that job, but it's gonna be barely. It's gonna be a tough run.

SPEAKER_03 18:55

I don't know. I I I just do so little spell work.

SPEAKER_02 19:00

I know, but it's like the money spell, or you know, what do you call success?

SPEAKER_03 19:07

What is success to you, absolutely. Right. That's subjective reality.

SPEAKER_02 19:14

Are you successful when you have uh a house and a car? Are you successful if you have a house and a car and they're paid off?

SPEAKER_03 19:23

Are you successful if you aren't miserable?

SPEAKER_02 19:27

Yeah, are you successful if you've got everything you need but no bills?

SPEAKER_03 19:33

Yeah, it depends. I get that's subjective. Everybody's out there. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 19:37

Because my idea of a good life is not really having to worry about buying groceries, not buying groceries, having money for groceries, gas to get here or there. Is it the place I want to live? Or you mean is your life perfect? Is my life perfect? No. But do I have a lot of worries? No, not really.

SPEAKER_03 19:59

No, I think that for the most part we're genuinely happy people. So we can't go for those spells, I guess. No, course we work hard to get here, at least I do, getting our our spiritual and mundane life in order and balance. It takes work.

SPEAKER_02 20:15

Right. Unfortunately, a lot of real witches have this problem. And it there was an old joke. How many witches does it take to change a light bulb? None. You just light a candle instead.

SPEAKER_03 20:27

Uh I was gonna say none because we like the dark.

SPEAKER_02 20:34

You'll think of it better this way. All right. Hey, we got a little extra money. Maybe we should get a new dishwasher. Wow, what's wrong with the old one?

SPEAKER_03 20:41

Uh it's still working. That's what I'll say, man.

SPEAKER_02 20:44

Yep. Do I really need a new vehicle? Uh no, this one's still above ground. It's got wheels, don't it? Keep going. It's got wheels. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Do I need a new husband? No, this one's still above ground.

SPEAKER_03 21:00

Still above the daisies, Annie. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 21:04

Breathing.

SPEAKER_03 21:04

He's breathing.

SPEAKER_02 21:05

Occasionally does stuff.

SPEAKER_03 21:09

Yeah. Be grateful for what you have. Appreciate what you have. So you can focus on other crap. Why should I focus on, oh, I need a new house, a new car, a new this. Why? I can focus on something else instead of that. You don't know what you have and move on.

SPEAKER_02 21:25

I'm just happy if I can get up in the morning and actually get the lid off my go mug for my coffee.

SPEAKER_03 21:30

Yeah. Yeah. It's the little things with you, isn't it? It is. Can I walk from this room to that one without being excruciating pain that would be a little bit more?

SPEAKER_02 21:39

That'd be great.

SPEAKER_03 21:41

What a good day.

SPEAKER_02 21:42

That's a good day right there.

SPEAKER_03 21:44

Uh so you know how to appreciate the little things as well.

SPEAKER_02 21:48

Yeah. So it's the small things. Yes. Can I actually get out of bed today? Woo!

SPEAKER_03 21:56

Look at me go. Woohoo!

SPEAKER_02 22:03

I can get out of bed without having to wake up Oswin going, Hey, help me up.

SPEAKER_03 22:08

Help. Help me. Help me.

SPEAKER_02 22:10

Help me. Or get into the floor and you know, feeling real triumphant just to get out of it.

SPEAKER_03 22:17

Congratulations.

SPEAKER_02 22:19

Congratulations.

SPEAKER_03 22:20

That's fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 22:22

It's like when I'm out when I come to visit y'all, when it's kind of like, you know, I get into the floor to do something. Hey, old man in the floor. Help. Yeah, I said on my way down. That way everybody's prepared that at some point somebody's gonna have to get me up.

SPEAKER_03 22:38

That's why I have children to help you up. That's why that's their job. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 22:42

Help him out. Help him up. But why? Because he was on the floor doing something for you to help you out.

SPEAKER_03 22:53

It's his life now. You either help him up or he lives there.

SPEAKER_02 22:55

Or he lives there.

unknown 22:57

Help him out before.

SPEAKER_02 22:59

Which kind of scares me with your kids because you know your kids like me enough to where they'd go, well, he'd just stay there. Yay. I'd be like, oh my god, I'm gonna die.

SPEAKER_03 23:09

Here. This is it.

SPEAKER_02 23:11

This is it.

SPEAKER_03 23:16

Surrounded by lightsabers and remote cubes. That's how you're gonna go out.

SPEAKER_02 23:25

It's just small things in life.

SPEAKER_03 23:33

Well, I'm out of coffee. Oh, I've been out of coffee.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

Thank you for listening to Peggy and Coffee Talk. I hope you join us next week.

SPEAKER_00 23:45

We travel down this trodden path, the maze of stone and mire. Just hold my hand as we pass by a sea of blazing pyres. And so it is the end of our day. So walk with me till morning break. And so it is the end of our days, so walk with me till morning.