Initiation

 Explore the difference between traditional initiation and self-initiation in this episode of Pagan Coffee Talk with Lord Night. Dive deep into the mechanics of energy transfer, psychic awakening, and the spiritual impact of being initiated in a coven versus self-dedication. Discover why traditional initiation is considered a true awakening, how it connects practitioners through life force and quantum entanglement, and why self-initiation is often more accurately described as a dedication. Perfect for witches, Wiccans, and anyone curious about the mysteries of energy, craft, and spiritual growth. 

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SPEAKER_00 0:37

Welcome back to Peg and Coffee Talk. I am Oslin and I'm sitting here with Lord Knight. How are you? I'm good, and how are you? I'm good, thank you. So today's topic is going to be initiation versus self-initiation.

SPEAKER_03 0:55

All right. We are a traditional covenant.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Yes, we are.

SPEAKER_03 0:59

And this is what I teach. And again, this is all my viewpoint or what I teach in class, all right? I do not believe in the self-initiation. Self-initiation is about the to me, in my mind, is the equivalent of the self-perpetuating machine. It doesn't exist. Physics and quantum physics does not allow for this. All right. And here's why. So it takes a witch to make a witch, all right? I know some people are going to be mad at me on that, but oh well. It's what I believe. And this is why I believe it. The human brain has layers. We got the lizard brain right at the very base of it that controls, regulates our body temperature and all that. Then we have the monkey brain over top of it that gives us some cognitive abilities. Right. Then we have our conscious mind on top of it. So technically we got like three brains wrapped on top of each other. Okay. Now, for as wonderful of a device as it is, when you're firstborn, you get so much life energy, all right? So much spirit, because we believe spirit is the equivalent of life. So anything alive has spirit energy. Anything not alive does not have it. Souls are something separate to us. Once you have that energy and once you become alive, once that first division happens and those cells start to become alive and the process starts, it automatically sucks all the life force energy it needs from wherever we get it from. But this is enough to start life. It's not enough to wake all three brains up to their maximum capacity. Okay. Makes sense? All right. So this way you're trained as a kid to learn this type of lifestyle. Back in the olden days. And at a certain age, then they would place power in you. And that power would open up the rest of your brain, allowing you to grasp onto other concepts and stuff like that and understanding and communication with the spirit world. Right? Okay. And the way they did this is through other people. So it takes other people to initiate you because you're giving up a piece of your energy to this person. Everybody that's gathered there is giving up a piece of their life force energy to give this person a boost. And once we get them to the tipping point, that's it. Does that make sense? It does, but um where all this stuff starts to come on over the next couple of days after your initiation.

SPEAKER_00 3:43

Okay, but my question is what about couldn't somebody do that just through opening up chakras? Is that not the same thing? Could they not do that as part of their self-dedication? I mean their self-initiation.

SPEAKER_03 3:57

Yeah, but that is a that we're talking about an Eastern philosophy that don't fit completely well in the craft. Okay. All right, because again, this is the idea that there are certain pools of energy throughout your body. And I don't believe I don't completely disapprove this, but I'm not gonna sit there and hold on to the whole chakra thing. It's not the hill I'm gonna die on.

SPEAKER_00 4:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 4:20

All right, I don't care if you call them chakra or power points, whatever. Because we're all trained to learn how to concentrate energy out of one hand versus another hand and how to take in energy from one hand to another. And these are not your chakra points either. So how what are you moving your heart chakra down to your palm? I uh but you see what I'm saying? And I I don't mean to be that crasp about it, but literally, if this is what you believe in and these are where these powers come out of, I mean, literally, are are you taking your root chakra and putting it in the palm of your hand?

SPEAKER_00 4:58

Right.

SPEAKER_03 4:59

Or is it the fact that your whole entire body's this whole entire thing of a chakra to begin with?

SPEAKER_00 5:07

But I tend to believe that your body is one big chakra.

SPEAKER_03 5:11

Right.

SPEAKER_00 5:12

If you've gone through an initiation, a traditional initiation.

SPEAKER_03 5:18

These points where that brain's woken up. Right. I I mean, literally, yes, for all intents and purposes, yes, what we are doing is we are literally prying open all these psychic points, your third eye. We're you're not given a choice, your choice was to go through this process or not. Scientifically, yes, this is what we're doing. We're ripping it open your third eyes. We are activating all this all at one time. And once it's done, that's it. We cannot put the genie back into the bottle. And I cannot see this process happening in self-initiation. Because where are you getting the extra life force? Because the life force you got, the life force energy is what you got. You can diminish it and it will replenish, but if you're only a 30-gallon tank, you're just only a 30-gallon tank. You can't suddenly have 50 gallons in a 30-gallon tank.

SPEAKER_00 6:10

Well, I mean, what what about drawing down the moon? I mean, can they not actually get that spirit boost?

SPEAKER_03 6:17

Well, I mean, I hate to be this way, but in our tradition, we look at wizards as anybody who does magic without the religion. Okay. Makes sense? So they're just doing magic. So you're golden dons and stuff like that, and you're they're out there. They're performing magic, they're wizards. It is scientifically, they take magic to the point to where it is a science. We know if we move this way, hold this at this time, at this place, we can make this energy do our will. We're crafts, we build relationships with these things. But to be able to build those relationships, we gotta be initiated, we gotta be aware of them. We gotta play on their level. Okay. Which takes excess energy. Now, I don't know about you, and it could just be our tradition. I could be completely wrong. Any other traditions out there, this happens to them. But all I know is every time I do an initiation, I'm down for like 12 hours. Very little drinking afterwards, whatever, going to bed. I wake up the next morning and I look like I've had a hang I got a hangover and act like it.

SPEAKER_00 7:28

Yes, you do.

SPEAKER_03 7:29

And I've initiated enough people. I can feel the drain on my physical being. And then I look at the initiate, and God forbid, if they spent the night, they'll run around the house like, you know, they've just done a pound of, you know, sugar along with a eight ball of cocaine. Right. What do you think we're doing? But do you see what I'm saying? You know, once you've got that life for you can't refill your own tank that much with your spirit energy. Am I making sense there? Right. It's just the level that it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You might be able to channel a f a little bit from plants and stuff like that. But I don't, it's not the same as freely giving. When you're using that, because I know some people go, but you know, you can go out there and do that and gather up that energy. Yeah, but you're having to rip it from them. You know, just like when we were talking about there's no backlashes on spells. But then on the other hand, you sitting there writing, ooh, for the greater good and all that, it makes you feel better. It don't actually do jack shit. Right. It doesn't stop it from stealing that twenty dollars from the guy who might need it, who's going to be the most likely person to lose it. So again, that's to make you feel better. Life ain't that clear cut. But literally, this is what we're doing in that initiation. We are placing extra power into this person, which opens up certain psychic fields and stuff of the mind to allow it to interpret these things.

SPEAKER_00 9:07

All right. So self-initiation is essentially nothing more than a dedication.

SPEAKER_03 9:12

A dedication.

SPEAKER_00 9:13

I dedicate myself to the goddess. I dedicate myself to the god. Right. I dedicate myself to this religion.

SPEAKER_03 9:20

Self-dedication, that's between you and the gods.

SPEAKER_00 9:23

But it's not an initiation.

SPEAKER_03 9:25

But it's not an initiation. And I'm sorry if you're not initiated, and in our belief, we don't believe you're a witch. You can be a solitary Wiccan and all that, and whatever you want. We're not telling you you can or cannot do whatever. You do you, boo. We don't all I'm saying is technically the way we look at it, if you're not initiated into craft, if you're not initiated into the the more traditional, you're not a witch. You're you're a Wiccan. That's fine. This is what we believe.

SPEAKER_00 10:00

So now is that just is that just our terminology? I mean, are we saying if you want to go call yourself a witch, you can, but we don't believe you're a witch.

SPEAKER_03 10:10

Right. Here's the reason we believe this. We believe this because this is what happens in these initiations. Here's the after effects. We can see them, we can measure these things. Right. I have yet to see anybody come up going, hey, here's where this happened, and this is the way the person responds after self-initiation and blah, blah, blah. I don't see any change of personality there. Literally, the people we initiate right afterwards, their personality slightly changes. From the person you fell in love to to acting completely different. Your church mouth is now a line. You know, you know, the one person that wouldn't act that way suddenly is and question you on everything. Right. Because there's more of an understanding there. And I'm sorry, I did the self-initiation when I was younger. Right, you know, the Scott Cunningham books, did it, and then I did initiation. Trust me, there's something to this initiation.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

So would it be enough to say that maybe we need to stop calling these self-initiations initiations? And just call it dedications. Let's just call it a dedication and be done with it.

SPEAKER_03 11:23

And be done with it. Because then it's up to you to work through the whole entire ethics and morals of keeping your word to the gods.

SPEAKER_01 11:30

Right.

SPEAKER_03 11:32

Not mine. This that's between you and them. I can't think of any other way to put it. But yes, there is a placing of power. We are doing things to these people. We warn these people ahead of time.

SPEAKER_00 11:45

This is true.

SPEAKER_03 11:47

You know, we keep on asking them, are you sure this is what you want to do? Again, I know there's probably going to be a lot of people out there that's really going to hate this, but attack my idea. We're placing energy in somebody. If I am completely missing something here on self-initiation, tell me. But I do not see where in a world a person sitting out in the woods by themselves are going to generate enough energy to put right back into themselves.

SPEAKER_00 12:11

Well, I know when I started on my path and I was reading, reading the books that everybody reads, and I was seeing all this about self-initiation and all this other stuff. As I read it, it didn't even seem like an initiation. It just seemed like a dedication. And I don't know, I don't know if that goes back to my fraternity days from college, if it goes back to my Christian background when I grew up in the Christian church. But to me, an initiation is done by people.

SPEAKER_03 12:46

Well, yes, and the tradition There are other people there.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

It's not just you.

SPEAKER_03 12:51

Because all initiations do the same thing. The end goal is to have an awakening. Lord Min used to tell me about a cult, and I wish I remember what it was in ancient Egypt, and it had to do with grain. And you would spend years studying and all this, and then during your initiation, at some point, somebody puts a seed of a grain in your hand. And that these people seeing this realize some mystery or that's revealed to them, and they're sitting there crying over this because it has more meaning now. Extra energy was added to this person. And yeah, for those people that go, hey, well, how in the world does this all start? Well, it's got to start somewhere. Well, of course it started somewhere. All right, and as stupid as it sounds, yes, at some point, green bean initiated Bob. Bob initiated Ted. Ted initiated Green Bean again, and so forth and so on. These people giving up willingly just a little bit. And then over generations and generations and generations, that little drop has now become a tidal wave. Right. Am I making sense there? No, it makes perfect sense. It was a very magical night for me, even though I barely remember half of it. But now doing them and watching them, I I love it. And I love to see these people after the initiation start to grow and flourish. Some don't, some do. But again, this is what we're doing. We are raising energies and we are putting it into this person. So for a brief time, they got excess energy. And I believe this does. It wakes up parts of the minds that you didn't know you had. Make any sense there? Yeah. You know, so I again I don't see how self-initiation works. Like I said, I could be wrong. Somebody tell me. Because I don't see where self-initiation can do what a traditional initiation does.

SPEAKER_01 14:51

Right.

SPEAKER_03 14:51

I mean, for those who live out in areas and they're like, well, there's nobody around. Well, and I know for like Life Temple and Seminary, the idea was, yeah, you know, your your little group gets up enough money to send Sally to train with the group like ours or somebody else, get the first degree, come back, because doing that second degree is a little bit easier to do over a long distance compared to a first degree. And then they go back and become that teacher.

SPEAKER_01 15:18

Right.

SPEAKER_03 15:19

They y'all do rituals and stuff together. And when they get their second degree and they can teach, they can start teaching y'all. Y'all automatic coven created out of nowhere. That's how this stuff's supposed to work, from my understanding. This is what Lord Ben's idea was for Life Temple and Seminary to originally bring out was to make qualified, reputable people that pretty much knew what in the world they were doing. There are other temples out there that do the same thing. They got qualified people sitting back waiting to start their own temples or their own covenants. So this is what the initiation is. Anything else I've got? Okay. Now again, what I think this process does is because we've been talking about the beta fabric and all this, right? Does it exist, don't it? And we've already in I'm gonna flat out it does exist, it's there. And like I said, it's more like an open world game. Right. You know, where you got that story arc you gotta do, but you can go 50 other things first. I believe the initiation process, one of the things that happens is that you literally get ripped from that fabric of fate. To give you a better view of it. I mean, you're not completely separated, you're a part of it, but you're not. You got one foot in the stream and one foot on land.

SPEAKER_00 16:43

That was gonna be my question. Are you completely separated?

SPEAKER_03 16:47

No, you're still a part of it, but you're not a part of it. And I think this is what it does. And I think this is why some people who think they're ready to get initiation, when they do get initiated, sometimes wig out because they're starting to see things from a different point of view they weren't expecting. And it can be a little traumatic. So yeah, I mean, this is what I think the part of the initiation process does. It sort of like halfway rips you out. Where you got that one foot on the shore and one foot in the in the stream.

SPEAKER_00 17:21

So then once that happens, are you ever are you ever fully back into the stream or are you com are you permanently half in, half out?

SPEAKER_03 17:32

You're permanently half half in and a half out.

SPEAKER_00 17:35

So how does that how does that affect your story arc? If you're going back to that real real world game scenario, how does that affect your story arc? How how does that your destiny, your fate? How is all that affected?

SPEAKER_03 17:53

How about this? Your story arc sort of disappears. You write it as you go. Why everybody else that's not initiated, or everybody else, is still part of that stream. Don't get me wrong, yeah, there's psychics out there and stuff like that. And I think these and I think a lot of these people and some people out there naturally can pop their head out of the street. But they're never fully to where in the world they can step partially onto the shore. All right. Does that make sense? But there's something about that process that allows us to, like I said, to have that one foot on the shore, one foot in the street.

SPEAKER_00 18:34

Okay, but now doing something like that, does that like throwing pebbles, constantly throwing pebbles into the stream, is this causing like a mass ripple effect? And how many is that gonna affect people around us?

SPEAKER_03 18:47

Uh think about it this way: your effect on you just being there actually becomes very minimized. Okay. Because you're not as much in the stream. Gotcha. All right. More of you is out of the stream than in the stream, so therefore, uh, it's not quite as affecting you. Other people's decisions and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00 19:10

Well, I think I think what I was thinking was is that you said the words ripped.

SPEAKER_03 19:17

Right.

SPEAKER_00 19:18

So that's gonna create a rip in that fabric. Does the rip keep going? Does it keep getting bigger?

SPEAKER_03 19:27

No, no, no, no, no, I don't know. I see what you're saying. No, I think them odds come back together to bring the stream back to as close to where it used to be. Okay. Does that make sense? Kind of like the future sort of adjust to the new hole and get and it sort of gets rid of it.

SPEAKER_00 19:46

So it's not like a pair of jeans where you get a hole and it just keeps getting bigger the longer you wear the jeans through washing and everything else. Right. So it sort of mends itself.

SPEAKER_03 19:56

Sort of mends itself.

SPEAKER_00 19:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 19:59

I mean, again, I could be completely wrong here. What do you think?

SPEAKER_00 20:05

You could be, but I don't know. To me, it makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 20:08

Well, it again, it checks off all the witchy boxes. All the theories of energy transfer, the whole nine yards. It it makes sense in which logic.

unknown 20:18

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 20:19

Mysteries and legends and stuff that are put out there. It makes sense when you look at the information we're looking at. And I I hate to be vague, but for everybody, but we're talking about a large source of information here that we're looking at. We're not looking at just certain things.

SPEAKER_00 20:42

And of course, we are dancing around a few things. Yes. A few. Because of O's and O's and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_03 20:52

I mean, and again, you gotta remember, yes, you you're sworn to O's in this, and again, we we have to keep our words, but we literally the stuff that's revealed to us when we do this, the punishments for them is that we give up our chances of a future life, so reincarnation's out, and then God forbid, and you know, all our weapons and powers and tools turn against us. Right. I wouldn't want to go through it, but uh no. Again, if we're looking at this, this is literally what we're doing. Now, with each initiation, we also believe that this is basically quantum entangling us to each other.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

So basically, if you initiated me, then I get a piece of you. You you get it. And whoever else was there gets I get a piece of them, and so forth and so on.

SPEAKER_03 21:43

Now, again, in our tradition, we believe that the whole of craft of those who are the traditionalist Alexandrians, whatever, in that class that believe like we do, yes, we all believe that we are part of a network tied into one another. That's created by this initiation process that allows us to pull exer energy from other temples and other places around us. Even traditions that aren't necessarily ours, but because we all fall underneath craft, we all have access to this. Okay. That you know, that this energy transfer actually causes a quantum entanglement. So you are forever attached to the people that initiated you. Right. You can never be completely separated from them. And then you're attached to those who initiated that person.

SPEAKER_00 22:39

Well now the question is, does that go beyond death? Are you still attached to them?

SPEAKER_03 22:45

I believe when you die, I belie actually I believe you that you do, because again, some people I believe in the group soul that groups of souls come back at certain times. Okay. And those groups could be caused by quantum entanglement. Because one came that pulled another one and it pulled another one, and once you get so many over here, the whole entire group comes over in a rapid Alright. But I mean I I I do not see where self-initiation gives you that quantum entanglement to allow you to be part of that. It can't. No. No, because again, this is me giving you a piece of my life force.

SPEAKER_00 23:24

I see that just that makes me that makes me feel like my initial viewpoint on quote unquote self-initiations was correct. It's nothing more than a dedication.

SPEAKER_03 23:38

That's all I've ever seen it as. I can't it can't be anything more. Personally, I think the whole self-initiation was a con job to sell more books.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

Probably, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:48

Because how many books are you gonna sell if you put one out to go, okay, now that you've read this book, now go out, find a coven, and get initiated. They're gonna give you the rest of your information. You're not gonna have to come back here and buy my book. So I gotta have an escapegoat here. If I send you to the actual teachers, well, you won't need me anymore.

SPEAKER_00 24:10

Well, that's not completely true. I mean, there's a lot of information missing out of those books, but there are some good information floating around out there.

SPEAKER_03 24:22

But if you think about it in the grand scheme of things, how many books are you gonna sell if you're gonna get it to the end and go, okay, now you gotta go out and find a teacher? And why would I buy any more of your books? They're all gonna end the same, that I gotta go find a teacher.

SPEAKER_00 24:33

For sure, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:34

You you see what I'm saying? So well, I wouldn't want that in there. Well, no. But I again, again, this is where the self-initiation came up from. Well, if we don't put that in there and have these people thinking this, they're gonna quit buying our books.

SPEAKER_00 24:52

Well, but see, that's that's the thing. In the uh in more recent years, I think a lot of books are getting away from that.

SPEAKER_03 25:03

And and switching over to the self-dedication.

SPEAKER_00 25:05

Well uh well, no, and it's well that, but I don't I don't think a lot of books are including that anymore. They're just uh the books are information.

SPEAKER_03 25:16

You know, I'd well would say, you know, I haven't read a quote unquote witch book and or a pagan book in quite a while. But then on the other hand, I do more Audible than I do anything else. But yeah, I think the last book I listened to was on crystals. And I didn't by the time I got done, I didn't know any more than I knew before.

SPEAKER_00 25:35

Well, the the last one I listened to No, I tell you that back.

SPEAKER_03 25:39

I listened to the one on traditional Welch. Okay, it was more the myths and the legends. Uh, you know, I'd probably actually have to have the real book to see if they wove any mysteries in there.

SPEAKER_00 25:50

Right, but that's that's what I'm saying. I think the last one I read was on Appalachian Magic, and that's just cool. But it was it was all about it wasn't there was nothing in there about dedications or initiations or anything, it was just this is what it is. Yeah, these are some of the things that we do, this is who we are, this is what we live by. And I think a lot of books are wrong because I haven't read a whole lot of books recently, but I think a lot of books are switching over to that and getting away from the whole initiation self-dedication thing.

SPEAKER_03 26:28

It might be. So you know, like I said, I haven't really read one other than you know, that and some listen to more what myth and legends, right uh type stuff, and um of course stuff on quantum physics and other things. But well, I think I'm out of coffee. As always, follow us on Facebook, visit our homepage, maybe decide to donate. Tell us what you think, and you know, drop us a line and let us know. You can leave us uh on YouTube even. All right. All right, we'll see you later. Y'all come back, you hear? Thank you for listening to Peggy and Coffee Talk. I hope you join us next week.

SPEAKER_02 27:11

We travel down the stroden path, the mate of stone and mire. Just hold my hand as we pass by the blazing fire. That's all it is, the end of our days, so off with me till morning breaks. That's all it is, the end of our days, so off with me, it's a body.