Burnout and To Nude or not to Nude

In this episode of Pagan Coffee Talk, Oswin and Lord Night take an unfiltered look at spiritual burnout within paganism, witchcraft, and modern spiritual practice—asking the uncomfortable question: is burnout in the Craft real, or is it a sign of something deeper going wrong? Drawing from decades of experience in Witchcraft, coven work, and ritual practice, they explore the difference between genuine mental exhaustion and a disconnect from one’s spiritual path.

The discussion challenges common ideas around burnout in the witch and pagan communities, particularly the tendency to treat spiritual practice like a checklist of daily tasks—tarot pulls, spellwork, rituals, and constant magical output. Instead, they emphasize that true spiritual living isn’t about performing endless rituals or chasing the next trend in witchcraft, but about integration—making your beliefs, meditation, and awareness part of your everyday life. When spirituality becomes a job rather than a lived experience, burnout becomes inevitable.

Oswin and Lord Night break down how meditation, self-reflection, and honest questioning can help practitioners reconnect with their path, rather than abandoning it. They discuss the importance of identifying the real source of exhaustion—whether it’s overcommitment, unrealistic expectations, or using magic as a substitute for practical action—and why stepping back to recalibrate can be more powerful than pushing harder. For those feeling stuck in a rut or disconnected from their practice, this episode offers a grounded perspective on how to restore meaning and balance.

The conversation then shifts into a candid exploration of skyclad rituals in Wicca and pagan traditions, addressing the role of nudity in ritual work, its symbolism of vulnerability and freedom, and the practical realities of group dynamics. They discuss when skyclad practice may be appropriate—such as in private or well-established covens—and when it may create discomfort, particularly in public or mixed-experience settings. Trust, consent, and mutual respect are emphasized as essential foundations, whether practitioners choose to work robed or skyclad.

Blending humor, blunt honesty, and real-world experience, this episode offers insight into the realities of long-term spiritual practice, from avoiding burnout and maintaining authenticity to navigating ritual choices and community expectations. It’s a thoughtful, grounded discussion for anyone exploring witchcraft, paganism, or Wicca who wants to build a sustainable, meaningful spiritual path rather than one driven by pressure, performance, or burnout.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:21

Welcome to Pegan Coffee Talk. Here are your hosts, Oswin and Lord Knight. So the topic for today is burnout. Alright. What exactly is burnout when it comes to paganism? Or spiritual burnout? Or spiritual burnout?

SPEAKER_02 0:40

Well, my understanding is that you're just too overwhelmed with everything. It's too much. You've done it for too long. It's stale. Not fresh. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 0:53

Is what I'm gathering that you just don't want to deal with it. You just feel like you do it could it be something along the lines of you just feel like you're in a rut? Maybe. Where you just feel like you're repeating stuff and you're not really getting anything out of it.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

Oh, us in paganism?

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Repeat shit? No, never. I just meant to the point where you're not getting anything out of it. Guess it could happen. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:25

This is a concept that just baffles me. Because the only time I've ever gotten burnout or something like that, it was my job. Right. You know, you get burnt out from your job because you have to do it. You don't necessarily want to do it, but you've got to do it, and you've got to force yourself to do it sometimes. I'm sorry, if you're living a spiritual life, a religious and spiritual life, what do you get burnt out for? It's your life. How do you get burnt out from your life?

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Well, I mean, I don't I don't get burned out necessarily spiritually. I get burned out mentally. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:06

I mean, everybody does. Every you you have to take a break from thinking. Right. You know? So uh don't have a problem with you taking a break from thinking, uh and it's called meditation. Right.

SPEAKER_01 2:23

No, I couldn't. I had I couldn't read that. There's something we haven't heard in a while.

SPEAKER_02 2:29

But let me be a little bit of an ass here. Go for it. All right. I have never seen Ben Shapiro get on TV going, hey, you know what? I'm burnt out being a Jew. I'm just not going to wear this yarmulke anymore. Right. I've never seen any of these other religious people get I'm I'm burnt out being a Christian. I'm just I'm done. Right. Never the words ever came out of fucking Billy Graham's mouth. Oh no. So why is it that the witch community seems to get burnt out? Could it be that these people that get burnt out are getting burnt out because it's their job. And it's not their life, it's not their spirituality. It's a job. It is something to do, it is something to make money. They have to force themselves to do it.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

Right, that's what I was gonna say. For them, it's not a spiritual thing. No. If it was, I don't think there would be that burnout. I'm sorry. This is the way I live my life. This is what I am, this is who I am. I mean, we've we've been a part of this for thirty years now.

SPEAKER_02 3:36

Or longer. I am sorry. I have never heard Lady Maya call anybody up or anything like that and go, you know what, I'm burnt out being a freaking high priestess. Right. It's these people who want to treat it like a job and not their life. They haven't integrated into their life. It hasn't become their life.

SPEAKER_01 4:00

So of course they're gonna get burnt out on it because they're too busy trying to make it a job. Well, and I'll admit, when we first started this coven, it was not easy. There were a lot of things we had to get used to. Yeah. And we had some support, but we didn't have a whole lot of support. And don't get me wrong, I I remember the days of sitting there at a desk about to rip my freaking hair out. Right. So I mean, there are things not that we're not saying You there's not frustration or aggravation, but at no time At no time did we just say fuck it all.

SPEAKER_02 4:39

Fuck it. Close the door, screw it. I fuck everybody in the whole entire world. Right. I mean, yes, have I had to leave a temple because of job and money and blah blah blah? Yes. Right. But this wasn't because I was quote unquote burnt out from the religion.

SPEAKER_01 4:57

Well, no, and even then the doors didn't close. No. When there were still people to run it. Exactly. Because you know what? The laws tell us that. And we were still a part of it. I mean, we we still supported Still there. You know? We still made the trip down for when we could, yeah. For the major Sabbaths. When we could.

SPEAKER_02 5:18

We were only a phone call away. But again, at no time did I ever feel like I was burnt out. No. And and and and again, I I I think the problem is is that it's the mindset that these people have. They want to treat it more as a as a job. Right. That's like doing these quote unquote daily devotional stuff. And I have repeatedly gone back and said, the only thing that is required that I know of is meditation. Right, a daily meditation. You do not have to do cards. You don't have to do all this stuff. Yes, if you're following a part of a tradition and they required it, that's what in the words you're getting yourself into. You knew that to start off with. Well, and then too I mean that that's like sitting there and and complaining about, you know, having to kill animals, but hey, you know what? You got a job in a slaughtering house.

SPEAKER_01 6:14

Well, but I was gonna say, if you want to use those terror cards as part of your meditation, go for it. Draw a card, meditate on it. Life goes on. If you want to do that as your meditation, that's fine. But that daily draw is not.

SPEAKER_02 6:34

No, no, no. But here's what I hear the majority of these people going, oh no, no, no. And then they gotta do all this. So we gotta quit doing all this. We gotta quit doing the meditations and all this other stuff because we're burnt out. Right. And all these people, and all these, especially all these high-fluiding people out there with all these mega beat people on their channels, they're treating this as a job. It's not their life. They're not giving you spirituality, they're just giving you whatever next fad comes on so they can make money. I have known pastors and religious people my whole entire life. And at no point did I ever hear Grandma Moses ever go, hey, you know what? I just don't want to go to church anymore. Right. My grandmother listened to her pastor on the radio. Yep. And still went on Sundays until they couldn't drive anymore. At no point did I ever hear my grandma go, you know what, I'm just burnt out on religion.

SPEAKER_01 7:32

No, I mean, even when my mom couldn't go to church anymore, she still watched on TV or she listened on the radio.

SPEAKER_02 7:41

Well, like growing up, I remember my mom had to work uh every other Saturday. And normally the Saturdays she didn't work, she wouldn't go to church. Because she was tired. Right. She needed a day off. She needed a day off. It wasn't that she didn't want to go to church, it's just she was physically tired. She was burnt out from her job. Right. Not from going to church. Right. And she needed that day of rest. She needed that day of rest. You know, it didn't stop her from reading the Bible. It didn't stop her from, you know, getting up at some point and listening to whatever televangelist was on TV. Or stopping to say a prayer or anything like that.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

Or whatever was part of her spiritual life. So I have to question those who say this. I would have to start questioning these people. Well, and then too, I would say if you think you're experiencing burnout and you you think of yourself as a spiritual person and you think it might be quote unquote burnout, meditate. That should be your go-to.

SPEAKER_02 8:49

It should be.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

That should be your respite.

SPEAKER_02 8:52

Well, I mean, I remember we used to have this first degree priestess. And her whole entire anytime anybody asked her for any questions or anything, meditate two days and call me in the morning. Oh yeah. Absolutely. That was her answer for everything. Anyone asked her, you meditate on that for two days, then come back and talk to me.

SPEAKER_01 9:17

Then you you come back and tell me what kind of answers you got. Right. Then we'll talk.

SPEAKER_02 9:21

You you you tell me what you think first. This is my problem with these people going around saying they're burnout. Because again, I'm back to when I sit here and I look at these high-profile people that are very religious, people like Matt Walsh, Ben Shapiro, and all these uh I have never seen them get out going, hey, you know what? I'm a little tired of going to, you know, mass on Sundays.

SPEAKER_01 9:51

No. I have heard them, you know what? I haven't posted anything in a few days. I need I just needed some time off.

SPEAKER_02 9:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:58

Okay. They never said anything about time off from their religion.

SPEAKER_02 10:03

No. They need to time away from their job or posting on social media. Right. Because again, we're back to hey, some religious people actually understand how in the hell to get to the root of the real problem. Absolutely. And I don't know, do something creative like fix the damn problem. No, here, let's cast yet another spell. And another spell. And another spell. And another. That's like putting a band-aid on a gaping wound. To me, this is like drilling a hole to let the water out that's coming in. In a boat. Right. You gotta start asking yourself these questions. Uh why are you really burnt out? Answer that question. Quit telling us that you're burnt out. Why? What have you done? Seriously, what have you actually done? Oh, you wrote a book. Oh. Big fucking too. What? It's not that hard anymore. No. So I think that's all I gotta say on this.

SPEAKER_01 11:11

I think I've said all I've got to say. Ready for the next topic? Sure. Alright, this is a topic from a listener who wanted to know what are our thoughts on skyclad rituals? Are you gonna tell me who it is so I know how to answer it?

SPEAKER_02 11:37

If you want to do your rituals nude, go for it. I'm just saying, but if you're doing open rituals or public rituals nude, I place time.

SPEAKER_01 11:51

I that's yeah, in my opinion, okay, for like personal rituals, that's fine. Coven rituals, it has its place. Public rituals, no. I mean simply because as um well, I mean I'm just thinking even within a coven, you've got to have it takes a certain amount of trust and being comfortable. Um you know, I have heard from a gardenerian who says that's part of the process is breaking free of being uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_02 12:31

Right. I mean, I d don't get me wrong. I I believe in the whole be naked in your rights, and you know, that all uh actions of you know to be free.

SPEAKER_01 12:42

Right. You shall be free from slavery, and as a sign of your freedom, you may be naked in your rights. See.

SPEAKER_02 12:49

I my point there is is what do you mean by naked as far as that goes? Are you naked in your defenses and vulnerability in circle?

SPEAKER_01 13:02

Right, before a lot of people being being like not clothed.

SPEAKER_02 13:08

I I understand that, but I use that vulnerability. Right. But I mean, just because you're naked, and I can understand using that as a process to break down the psychological barriers that we have. Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah. But to me, it's the psychological barriers that are more important than actually being naked in your right.

SPEAKER_01 13:27

So, in other words, if you can find another way to break down that barrier, go for it. Then that might be a better choice. Might be. You know. As opposed to just jumping in and being skyclad. I mean, if you want to do it, I again I'm back to you you do you, Boo. So yeah, we we personally have done skyclad rituals. Right.

SPEAKER_02 13:51

I'm non-safe. I I don't know how to say that. The the reason I'm so flippant about it is to me it's not it's not It's not a necessary element. It's not right. It's not necessarily necessary because I have to question, is it not more to be naked is in you get my raw emotions in circles, you get the raw me, and not some facade or anything like that. And again, like I said, I can understand the removing of clothing to help facilitate that mentally. Right. I mean, don't get me wrong, this part I understand, and it need some people need to go through that. But on the other hand, some people don't. So it's one of them things, it's kind of an however your group wants to go.

SPEAKER_01 14:39

Right. And I know I mentioned trust earlier, and for a lot of traditionalists, they're gonna say, well, that's you know, we step into circling perfect love and perfect trust.

SPEAKER_02 14:50

Right.

SPEAKER_01 14:51

And yeah, we do.

SPEAKER_02 14:52

I guess what I mean by that is Well, I mean that trust, you know, being being naked in your rights is a trust, but so is being clothed, because you know what? It's gonna be that person standing beside you to make sure that your sleeve doesn't get caught on fire off that damn altar candle. Right. I mean, but you see what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. That same amount of trust is there, regardless.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

Yeah, I just I don't know. I think for a lot of people the whole being naked in front of other people takes a different type of trust for some folks.

SPEAKER_02 15:27

I d see I see I can't say that. I'm but in it in our tradition, we're normally we normally wear ropes. Yes. Especially when we're doing rituals and blah blah blah. If I'm doing my personal rituals, I'll wear whatever the hell I want. Right. It's my personal ritual, and I would say the same to anybody else. If you want to do it naked, fine. You know, if you want to do it in a stripper outfit on a pole, I don't care. Right. But the question you have there is it's about trust. Do you see what I'm saying? One trust is just as important as another one.

SPEAKER_01 16:00

Sure, yeah. We've pretty much experienced it, not in a coven setting. Well, I mean, we we're bad about changing in front of each other. Right. You know, so really what's the difference?

SPEAKER_02 16:13

Right. It wasn't like, you know, you know, when when we're at temple, we have a girl's locker room and a boys' locker room. We just have some is normally at somebody's house, and whatever bedroom happens to be available is where most majority of us change.

SPEAKER_01 16:27

Right. And for a lot of us, we have no qualms about changing in front of the other sex. No. I mean, that's just the way it is. Yeah, you you're there to change your robes and not Right. So again, what's the difference?

SPEAKER_02 16:42

Yeah, not googling at other people. I mean, and again, I can see where in the world this thought can be extended into circle. You're there for the ritual, not to Google at other people.

SPEAKER_01 16:52

Right. I think it can, though, I think it can add a certain element to a ritual.

SPEAKER_02 16:58

Well, I I worry about especially especially for guys, because I know how those guys are, that first time doing it. Yeah. You know, but again, if they if they're gonna do it, just that somebody look at them going, yeah, we realize what's gonna happen. Nobody's gonna make fun of you if you stand at attention.

SPEAKER_01 17:16

Right. That's what I was getting ready to say. I mean, everybody knows this this happens.

SPEAKER_02 17:21

It happens. Life goes on.

SPEAKER_01 17:23

And let's face it, there is a there there is a certain amount of sexual energy inside of circle in it. So, I mean, what's the big deal?

SPEAKER_02 17:34

What's the big deal? I mean, you I I I hate to be this way. People trust me to put a blade to their throats. Yeah. Well, how much more trust do you have to show? You see what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_01 17:46

This is why I'm kind of flimsy on the whole clothing. I do think that if you're gonna if you're gonna do it in a group, you kind of need to know these people. Need to have some relationship with them.

SPEAKER_03 17:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:59

You need to have some sort of trust with them. And you also need to realize that I think in that kind of case, nobody's really gonna judge you if you're fat or if you're too skinny, or if you've got a little one, or a big one, or if you tit sag. I don't think anybody's gonna judge you because they're all they've all been in that same situation. Especially if it's your first time doing it.

SPEAKER_02 18:25

I d for me, I mean, first time I went to a new discount or anything like this, uh, you know, yeah, you you start to worry at first of all about, you know, the whole junior high thing when you're first thrown into a locker room and yeah, especially to be like a little gay kid, you're like sitting back going, Oh no, no, I can't look, I can't look, I can't look, I can't look. Right. Change your clothes, get the hell out. Do what you gotta do fast. Right. Make it an Olympic sport. And time. You know, uh like I said, I understand this, but for those who want to be naked in their rights and you are part of a coven and it's a mixed bag and you're the only one doing it, could you be making other people feel uncomfortable?

SPEAKER_01 19:14

Yeah, you could. I mean, I think in I think in a case like that, it's either all or nothing. Either everybody does it or nobody does it.

SPEAKER_02 19:20

Right. And like I said, in our tradition, majority of times we wear robes. We don't even think twice about it.

SPEAKER_01 19:26

You know, I mean a lot of times we're naked under the robes, but But then on the other hand, you know, we're in the same rooms changing clothes.

SPEAKER_02 19:32

Uh, you know.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

So again, what's there really is no difference.

SPEAKER_02 19:37

There's really no difference there. And again, I'm back to hey, if you're gonna trust me to hold a blade to your throat before you come in the circle, you wouldn't trust me to change clothes in front of me that I can't control myself.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

Or you wouldn't trust me inside of a circle beside somebody or across from somebody and not control myself.

SPEAKER_02 19:59

And not be able to control myself. Here's a problem I see, and it's in the community at large that we live in and society, is that there are people out there who I actually honestly believe that. That if, you know, if a woman wears too much of a cut, you know, too short of a skirt or something, somehow the majority of guys can no longer control their impulses enough to go, yeah, okay, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 20:27

Well, and there's still such a stigma on nudity or showing too much skin, or whatever the case may be, there's there's there's a still a stigma on it, and people are not comfortable with that. But that's only in the US. I know in other countries in the UK, Germany. There's not that big of an issue.

SPEAKER_02 20:51

I I remember going around, and of course, my grandmother was a mountain lady. Mm-hmm. Her that's where her family's from. Right. All right. You know, the six foot something should have gave it away. Right? The linebacker shoulders. You know, I remember being over there as a kid and her going around, her words, not mine, wearing her Brazil with just a towel to cover her cleavage. Right. To be kind of modest while I was there. I never really thought anything about this. No. Even if she didn't wear I would not think I I mean, as my grandmother, I you don't think about your grandmother in those terms. No, you don't. You know, in a house with no air conditioning whatsoever, only fans and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

People and chances are you were running around half naked too.

SPEAKER_02 21:42

So I mean Well, I mean, I d according to all the pictures I have seen of me growing up, from the ages of zero to like five, I think the only thing I ever wore was jockey shorts. Nothing else, no t shirts, no shoes, no socks, just jockey shorts.

SPEAKER_01 21:57

Not unless you're going out somewhere if you're at home. That shit comes off. There's a lot of kids that are like that.

SPEAKER_02 22:06

You know, I but still. Let the kids be the kids and you know, like I said, as far as this goes on ritual, that's up to you and your group.

SPEAKER_01 22:15

Right. I I'm not gonna sit there and But I think it again, I think it needs to be a mutual decision.

SPEAKER_02 22:20

Right. I mean, because I'd I would not want people there in robes and you know, have the people naked and they don't feel comfortable either. Right.

SPEAKER_01 22:28

And I'll say this too. If you're looking at covens, if you're somebody who's looking to join a coven, that needs to be something you need to look at because there are covens and that's all they do is sky clad rituals. And you need to ask to begin with. And yeah, that'll save you some time. I mean that should be at the top of your list. If that's an issue for you, it'll save you a lot of time and it'll save a lot of effort. And that's about all I got to say about it. I was gonna say, yeah, I think that pretty much sums it up.

SPEAKER_02 22:57

Yeah, I mean, it's your choice. Y'all need to work that out amongst yourselves. I'm not gonna sit there on one side of the fence or the other. Right. All right. I mean, either way, I still think that trust needs to be there. Right.

SPEAKER_01 23:10

And well, in my opinion, if you're how you get there is your temple covens business, not anybody else's. Right. If you're inside circle, you shouldn't be there if you don't trust me. Exactly. Regardless if we're closed or not. So if you don't have that trust, don't even bother. You know, and if you don't want to necessarily wear a robe, then don't. I mean, like I said, the majority of times we do. But don't be the only one not wearing one. Just be courteous to others, you know.

SPEAKER_02 23:43

What is that? It's always it's always the people that shouldn't get undressed that are the first to take off their clothes. I'm among those people. I'm not about two steps behind you. If I was to visit a temple and they did it, I I I'd probably whatever. You know. I'd be like, eh, okay. Okay. Where you want me to put my athem? I'm just asking.

SPEAKER_01 24:12

Right. Do I at least can I at least wear my cords? I mean I have questions on that, but that's Thanks for listening. Join us next week for another episode. Pegan Coffee Talk is brought to you by Life Temple and Seminary. Please visit us at life templeseminary.org for more information, as well as links to our social media Facebook, Discord, Twitter, YouTube, and Reddit.

SPEAKER_00 24:44

We travel down this trodden path a maze of stone and mire. Just hold my hand as we pass by a sea of blazing pyres, and so it is the end of our day, so walk with me till morning breaks, and so it is the end of our days, so walk with me till morning.