Pagan Coffee Talk
We will discuss topics related to the Pagan community. All views are from a traditionalist's point of view. The conversations are unscripted (no preparations have been made ahead of time). A special thanks to Darkest Era for the use of their songs: Intro- The Morrigan, Exit - Poem to the Gael. Check them out at http://darkestera.net/.
Pagan Coffee Talk
Idolizing Fiction Unveiling the Spiritual Shift in Fandom
Discover the enthralling connection between celebrity adoration and ancient deity worship as Lady Abba and Lord Night unravel a thread that ties together the divine reverence of yesteryears with today's pop culture phenomena. We're tearing down the curtains to reveal how fictional characters from Marvel to Buffy the Vampire Slayer are undergoing a metamorphosis into modern-day gods, and the transformative impact this might have on the fabric of spirituality and myth.
Venture with us into the realm of 'godspousing' as we dissect the motivations and nuances behind this intimate form of devotion, where the line between fervent faith and spiritual psychosis becomes intriguingly blurred. As we respect the sanctity of individual belief systems, we simultaneously navigate the delicate intersection of spirituality and mental health, offering insights that promise to expand your perspectives on the evolving landscape of religious practice and idolization. Join us for a conversation that's as profound as it is provocative.
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Welcome to Peg and Coffee Talk. If you enjoy our content, please consider donating and following our socials. Now here are your hosts, lady Abba and Lord Knight.
Speaker 2:So, Lord Knight, I think it stands to reason.
Speaker 3:That I have way too much time on my hands.
Speaker 2:Well, we both do to some extent. I don't know, maybe me less. I fill my time with too much, but I think it stands to reason that since the dawn of what we consider to be celebrity.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:People have been worshiping pop culture, whether it's a performing artist.
Speaker 3:Go back all the way to the Roman times, oh sure, and you would buy the oil that they bathed the of your favorite, uh, gladiator gladiator, yeah, yeah all right, so again. This has been going on from time to a more yeah, you're right.
Speaker 2:Well, not really, it's been. It's been a long time. Yeah, you, you have, whether it's sports figures, whether it's, you know, hollywood actors, musicians, singers, yeah, but the more modern we become, the worse it gets.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:So much so that I think every single person, if they're being truly honest, can remember a point in time where they had enough love or obsession with a particular person, yeah, that they effectively worshipped them. It was idolization, yes, and usually right. We grow out of it, we kind of, we just grow up, you move on get older and you go that music goes out of favor or that
Speaker 2:tv show or yeah, you just, you just kind of realize it was something you did as a kid, because that's what kids do, okay, and maybe in some instances right, it does carry through, especially with sports, I think, with men, you know there's there's definitely a there's a love for, especially love for their team yeah, longer standing relationship, but never before has it been so widespread where we're seeing people try to create deity intentionally off of pop culture figures yes and more importantly and this is the one that kind of weirds me out things that aren't even real cartoon characters yes and video game characters and in artworks and you know, conceptual or people that are dead, yes, and to try to literally worship them, idolize them enough that they effectively become a god they're, they're deifying this person yes, but but intentional.
Speaker 2:I literally with pagan structure as a means for it in some cases.
Speaker 3:Here's what confuses me, especially when you're doing like actresses and stuff like that yeah, are they worshiping the character or are they worshiping the actor?
Speaker 2:See, that's what I mean. I think back in the day it was more about the actor, it was about the individual. What we're seeing now is character driven, about the individual. What we're seeing now is character driven. I mean there are literally people out there who think that Scarlett Johansson as her character in Marvel Right Right, that the Marvel character as Scarlett Johansson could be a goddess Right, and I'm like whoa what? Now there's this, this is this. Gives me pause.
Speaker 3:So you have people out there who are trying to worship loki from the movie not loki, as we know him from norse mythology but yeah, but from a moment. So here's the thing excuse me, I'm to go stab myself in the eye.
Speaker 2:Oh, don't do that, don't do that, not yet. But there's a fundamental problem here. We have long said that part of the faith in a God, that part of what makes God God is people's acknowledgement.
Speaker 3:It's the worship, their perception.
Speaker 2:Adoration, remembrance, right, right, as long as we Adoration, remembrance Right, as long as we keep them alive, they are alive.
Speaker 3:Yes. So again you have this problem of this could be, you know.
Speaker 2:Well, it's. Are these people right?
Speaker 3:Are they effectively creating a deity?
Speaker 2:Well, I mean we've talked about deity being more of like a skin.
Speaker 3:But then, on the other hand, you know, are these characters and stuff like that, is there enough there to actually have a moral structure? How's it going to affect the religion? Are they incorporating that mythology into their beliefs? Or they are there people going around thinking that buffy the vampire slayer is a real goddess?
Speaker 2:well, that's what I mean.
Speaker 3:There are real vampires out there well, so hold on a second.
Speaker 2:So all right, let's, let's talk, buffy, why not? I love her, I mean, I love them too, but, in many ways, we could look at a character like buffy and go is she not Diana? Is she not the Huntress Right? Maybe even it's not a huge stretch to say that the people who created the character used an aspect of a goddess like Diana as part of the character, yeah, as inspiration, but then if you have people who literally view Diana as Buffy, Right. I mean I'm kind of okay with that.
Speaker 3:It seems strange. And again, first instinct on seeing this is I don't like it. There's something about it that rubs me the wrong way. See, that's funny.
Speaker 2:I don't totally mind it, because I feel like, look, we don't know their faces, right, we don't know. All we can do is guess. So if you want to take Sarah Michelle Gellar's, face.
Speaker 3:But again, I'm like you, but in my head. But yes, there's a feeling I get it grades me Understood, all right in my head. But yes, there's a feeling I get it grades me understood, all right. I'm not saying that's a logical thing, but in my head.
Speaker 2:Yes, these people, you're allowed to believe whatever you want, but I don't think that diana, the actual goddess, I don't think she's going to take offense. I think she's going to be like yep, sure you're doing what you've always done, right, you're you. You are seeing me as you see me as people. You are trying to give corporeal, tangible means of understanding to something you cannot. Okay, cool.
Speaker 3:Now. But from the way you're saying this, they're not just viewing Buffy, the character as no, like I said, that's the part I'm okay with.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's the part I'm okay with when you're kind of overlapping Right like a character with a pre-existing god from whatever pantheon, you're just using their form to yeah. Okay, no problem, but what we're seeing is people who are taking characters from make-believe places and going I'm gonna worship them. So whether it's a disney princess or a anime character, right, um, take your pick. I don't know anime, so, but you get what I'm going with this. I mean, like, I think, I think of, like the airbender.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which I've seen a lot of people actually starting to do some practices based on that yeah, based on the last airbender or even like a creature, like a again an utterly make-believe thing like a Pokemon.
Speaker 3:Okay, now you say all that, now I'm going to throw something out there just to keep us all muddy the waters okay, oh boy. But yet we have no problem sitting there imagining dragons and fairies and I know. I mean, we follow so much mythology on fairies and stuff like this, I know.
Speaker 2:And that's my point.
Speaker 3:I mean, my only question is how are they getting, especially if it's a story? I mean I know we use Buffy as an example because I remember them did the back in the day they did the circle casting the quarter calls with Buffy and that was cute.
Speaker 2:Look, imagine a thousand years from now, someone finding someone's Pokemon collection and not knowing what it was. They would think these were depictions of gods. Wait a minute, right, they all have powers, they all do things. Yeah, you know, like Pikachu could become Thor. I mean, it's really funny to think of, but it's logical.
Speaker 3:Lord Mian told me a story about this a long time ago. So some archaeologists are out one day doing some digging and they keep on finding these temples. And they're all over the place. There are these little mini temples. You walk up to it, you do some stuff, you do some prayers, you get something out of it and then you go along your way and the name of the God was Atium, atium. In a thousand years.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm, it makes. Yes, it makes sense that, like right, these things that are part of our modern society.
Speaker 3:I'm not trying to be mean, but these special symbols they see in some of these temples and stuff they're like oh, this means that it was this and it could have meant it was the bathroom.
Speaker 2:There's so many possibilities. There really are, right. But okay, we can understand how future man could potentially mistake, right. But here we are in the time of that franchise, that item, right, and people are saying why wait what? Let's make them a god now. And I go, huh, I don't really know what to say to that. I mean, look, if somebody kind of stepped forward and said I have created the church of of Pikachu, I mean what are we going to say?
Speaker 3:No.
Speaker 2:No, you're wrong.
Speaker 3:No, I'm just I'm asking questions. How's this actually going to work?
Speaker 2:But it could.
Speaker 3:I mean, I guess you're following the. You're going to be following the philosophies that they teach in the stories and not.
Speaker 2:I've heard some people go so far as to say, if it's Pokemon, ash becomes an apostle okay and I'm like, holy crap, that actually makes sense. Yes, it's wild, but but now here's the other part of that. At what point is it spiritual psychosis?
Speaker 3:When does it become a problem?
Speaker 2:When does it become? Either a psychotic break, a mental disorder, a delusion Because here's the thing wants to create the church of Pikachu and they create tenants and laws and a structure for worship and the whole nine yards. I mean, okay, you, you've got yourself a church. If you can find other people to adopt those beliefs, your church, go forth and. I mean prosper I guess yeah, like we can't really go, you're wrong because again we're doing the same things.
Speaker 3:We're everything's based off stories and stuff.
Speaker 2:That yes, exactly so why is that so far-fetched? But on the other hand, we have people right now on the web who are like pikachu, talks to me and tells me what to do spiritually. So, yeah, when does it become a problem? When is it potentially dangerous?
Speaker 3:I guess that's. My question is, I guess, when the behavior becomes more harmful or the religion becomes more harmful than it does anything else?
Speaker 2:but this. But you know, spiritual psychosis. Everybody's talking about it and people are in many cases misdefining it, or I think that the definition of what it means exactly is a little too broad right now.
Speaker 3:So I guess that is a good question. What do they mean when they say spiritual psychosis?
Speaker 2:Well, at the moment, let's see what we get here Behavior. Okay, so right now Google is saying spiritual psychosis is behaviors and thought patterns expressed during spiritual emergencies and psychosis exemplifying a loss of rational thought. Such symptoms include disorganized behavior, irrational or confusing speech patterns and significant alterations in the way a person views themselves and their place in the world. Hmm, I mean, the loss of rational thought is an interesting point, but I mean, again, we're back to religion's, not rational again.
Speaker 3:When, when you're heading to this, I think what in the world you've got is you've got a stalker. Then Of deity yes.
Speaker 2:Oh, interesting.
Speaker 3:Could that be it? Could someone be out there trying to stalk Buffy?
Speaker 2:That's a really interesting point.
Speaker 3:Could this be where in the world it could wind up leading to is because you have access to these people.
Speaker 2:But what if it's a character? What if it's a make-believe? You know, somebody thinks that Cinderella is their goddess, and they are actively.
Speaker 3:Well, again there's your problem. How do you tell? Because again you could look at what we do and go hey look, they're having a psychosis.
Speaker 2:Well, I guess it comes down to is what is deity telling you to do, and is it problematic?
Speaker 3:you know, is it sitting? Is it sitting there telling you to kill the neighbor's dog?
Speaker 2:and that's my point, because spiritual psychosis can happen to anyone, in any religion, and that's the idea if, if your god is telling you to do something, that is harmful to yourself and to others.
Speaker 3:That's a problem, right.
Speaker 2:But on its surface level, is there anything wrong with somebody you know deciding that?
Speaker 3:Considering how many times A comic book character is going to be their God. But again, as far as many times I've sat here and said I cannot judge other people's religion. I can't judge them. I'm not denying the fact that there's not a visceral gut reaction to it that just rubs me the wrong way right right, all right. I, I don't know what that is, and I'm not blaming them, but that's just me.
Speaker 2:There's just well, I tell you what I think we're going to get a cup of coffee, and then we're going to talk about another aspect of this. Okay, because what happens when you decide you want to marry your deity? Yeah, let's get you some coffee first. So there's a another fun thing circling the internet in relation to faith and deities and all this stuff we always talk about.
Speaker 3:You sure we can't convert?
Speaker 2:To what I don't know. Oh dear so the term God spousing.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:Is running around. Yes, so apparently people are marrying their deity and then claiming to have very intricate detailed relationships with said deity, with said deity as spouses.
Speaker 3:I don't understand this wait a minute, wait, wait a minute. I'm just going to bring this up, nuns.
Speaker 2:I was going to say this is not okay.
Speaker 3:So on one hand, I mean I see a difference between the two mainly it's the level of interaction.
Speaker 2:I think. Yes, godspousing. Yes, I mean, it was never called that to my knowledge prior, but yes, it has existed for a long time in other faiths. But I always saw it as a symbolic thing. Right, a nun is marrying Christ and saying I will not take a husband, I will not have relations with a man, I will not form a bond of that nature because I'm committing myself to christ. Right, but they understand that they're not really married.
Speaker 3:They're not going to roll over and just see christ in the big one.
Speaker 2:Oh hey, honey well, my point is like, if we look at it from a government standpoint, right, that none is not able to now claim head of household right in a merry true, can't file joint with jesus, that's not happening that's kind of funny. But what happens during the divorce right but yes, you, you are ceremonially doing this. I could see someone committing themselves to a pagan deity in this fashion.
Speaker 3:I could see this. I don't have a problem with it, with the way we're describing it, like with the nuns and all this, all right.
Speaker 2:But there are people who are saying that these relationships are more than that. There is deep communication, there is compromise, there is. They are describing these relationships the same way you would as either a couple or maybe like a long distance relationship as either a couple or maybe like a long distance relationship, and they claim that deity speaks to them in a very deliberate fashion. Look, I can only assume that to achieve this, we're either talking about incredibly deep meditative states, Right.
Speaker 3:Or we've got Some drug induced, yeah Right, or we've got Some drug induced.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's some kind of hallucinogenic or some.
Speaker 3:Something.
Speaker 2:Substance altering your perceptions? Yeah, so.
Speaker 3:Or could we just be Betty?
Speaker 2:Well, I think it comes down to why. Why is somebody doing it? Because, on one hand, if you're just saying that you know, a goddess showed up and was just like, hey, we're going to get married now and you're going to do everything, I say Nope.
Speaker 3:No.
Speaker 2:I don't. I don't see that, I don't see that as realistic.
Speaker 3:I don't think that that's how that would happen for some reason I keep on getting flashbacks of disjointed oh, that's funny where what's his name? Married the goddess of pot right, I forgot about that.
Speaker 2:I totally forgot about that. That's really funny. That's a great show. I wish it had gotten more seasons.
Speaker 3:Yes, it was such a great show, but again, this is what people are talking about, that this is what's going on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I mean, on one hand I'm like, well, if it doesn't hurt anybody, it's not really a big deal. It's not really a big deal. One of the ironies is that most of these people say that their spouse, god, allows them to see other people, so they're in a polyamorous relationship with the deity I think that's funny, uh-huh. But I think what concerns me is if somebody is doing this and it's a way for them to disassociate from society. Well from creating a bond with another person.
Speaker 3:Could it be a protective? So I don't get rejected.
Speaker 2:That's what I mean. I am so scared of being rejected, so therefore I could be fear of rejection, it could be trauma, right, there's any number of things that could create it, but if somebody is using this as a way to not address, An issue.
Speaker 3:Then that's a problem and it needs to be handled by professionals in a yeah, because it's no, then it's no longer a spiritual matter.
Speaker 2:None, then?
Speaker 3:it really is something that requires mental health. Now, when you're sitting there. But are you going to sit there and tell that person that's sitting there going hey, you know what Me and Loof suffered the other day Where's that dinner? And are you going to sit there and really look at them going? Darn, I think you might need some help.
Speaker 2:That's where it's kind of wild. I think you might need some help. That's where it's kind of wild, as we both have experienced. We have both had pagans tell us some pretty wild stuff.
Speaker 3:It takes a lot to surprise us.
Speaker 2:Yes, but we've heard some things that have given us pause, and we've always had to take it with a straight face and go okay. Well, if that's their experience, that's fine. But this where I also get concerned is this If you have a temple or a group, potentially, and someone believes that they have spouse bonded with a particular deity, at what point does that individual start saying no, no, no, you've got it wrong. That's not what he or she said, or that's not?
Speaker 2:what they meant or basically, they start translating or speaking on behalf of the deity and they're doing it as if this is pillow talk yeah which makes it even just a little bit more. Yeah.
Speaker 3:I don't.
Speaker 2:That's concerning. That could also be the beginning of in the right circle, that could be the beginning of a cult or the beginning of, yeah, just some sort of nefarious kind of plan you know of how to manipulate other people.
Speaker 3:Well, I don't believe all cults actually always start out as an intention to manipulate someone. No, I think some of them start out with 100% good intentions and it just devolves into that.
Speaker 2:I think so too. I think that happens a lot. So I mean, but it's happening. And again I feel like the age of the internet is part of the thing here. Is it real? Is it as prevalent as it's being made out to seem, or is it just that, unfortunately, folks who maybe are predisposed to a mental condition?
Speaker 3:Tend to a mental condition.
Speaker 2:It's in the lean this way, and they're rather loud on the internet because they don't believe that there's anything wrong. We have to at least scrutinize it a little bit, though I think.
Speaker 3:If it's starting to be overused, you're with me. As a crutch kind of thing, yeah, yeah I mean mean is it losing its potency? Right you know, like we were just saying, it's about like the nazi word, because everybody's using it. It's kind of like okay, well, everything's a nazi now well, everything is a buzzword, right right.
Speaker 2:So you know, one person does something about everything. Everybody's talking about godspousing. I mean, here we are talking about it, but I think we're talking about it kind of curiously. Yeah, more than anything else. Again, I would love to hear some thoughts, opinions. Has anybody done this? What is their experience like?
Speaker 3:Are we misinterpreting what we're hearing?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I mean we could Absolutely. I mean we could.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I mean, look again we're back to. Everybody comes to the table with biases, whether they mean to or not, and I can say for myself, if someone were telling me about this, if I had never done any research on it or heard of it nothing, and somebody said, yeah, I'm married to a deity, I would I don't know that I would listen much beyond my brain, might actually temporarily shut off to the idea because I would just be going this can't be no, but for some reason, every time I hear that I like keep on thinking about her nuns, yeah, and that it's not a strange practice, it's just no, it's this intimate relationship with right I just I think we find it so bizarre because it's non-corporeal.
Speaker 2:You know like, look, it's not unusual for a priest and a priestess to be symbolically married inside of circle. But are we now? No, but we know that, but at the same time, the relationship and the way priest and priestess sometimes operate together, it is very marital. Yes, yeah, and I mean we understand that, but the fact that we're both living, breathing beings makes it a little easier to navigate.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's difficult when you go okay, this other person is without a body, right, that's yeah. So I don't know, but yeah, I mean, I think it's something we're going to hear a bit more about, potentially in the near future, so we should keep an eye out, maybe something we might have to cut off.
Speaker 3:but how does this interact with incarnation? And then and again, if they're picking a normal Zeus or something like that, what are we talking about? Jealousy with the other gods and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, that's what I'm saying. It seems like there's a lot of potential for drama, yeah, in that relationship and I feel like that's where it could be difficult on the human brain and emotions as well. I mean, that's, that's a lot, it's a big burden. Yeah, when, when you think about it and I almost go, why would anybody commit to that? Because it really is, that's an intense commitment, yeah, especially when we look at our tradition and go we kind of do the year in a day trial run. Yeah, you know, do we get to do that with deity? I don't know, I don't know, like I don't know, that a Greek, you know right, deity, would be all that amused by that. They might be like, no, this is permanent. Well, perhaps I don't want to go that route.
Speaker 3:I mean, but again I mean, how would you feel if your toenail said hey, I want to marry you one day.
Speaker 2:And I don't mean to keep on putting it that way, but our view of the relationship between us and deity. Yeah, you're right, you're right, it's almost. I mean it. Look, it takes a hell of a topic for us to be speechless, and this is one of those. This is it's. It's like we have to not only have some more exposure to it and some understanding of it, but, but, yeah, potentially meet people who have had the experience. Someone's going to write a book, or at least I would hope.
Speaker 3:At some point, I'm sure, if it's not already being written- yeah Well, I will be sure to read it with coffee. Okay, you want coffee. Of course I want coffee. You had to ask.
Speaker 2:I mean, yeah, you don't have to ask, just put the cup in front of me, I'll drink it.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening. Join us next week for another episode. Peg and Coffee Talk is brought to you by Life Temple and Seminary. Please visit us at lifetempelseminaryorg for more information, as well as links to our social media.
Speaker 4:Facebook, Discord, Twitter, YouTube and Reddit, and so it is the end of our day, so walk with me till morning breaks. And so it is the end of our day. So walk with me till morning breaks.
