Navigating the Storm of Witch Politics

Why does the modern pagan community spend so much time tearing each other down? Today, we confront the unsettling trend of "witch politics" and the negative impact it has on our collective spiritual growth. Lady Alba and Lord Night dive into how these divisive behaviors mirror those seen in other religious communities, emphasizing the need to leave personal biases behind during communal worship. By addressing the problematic rise of unfounded accusations, including neo-Nazi labeling, we call for a return to mutual respect.

Ever wondered why some people feel the need to challenge and disprove others' spiritual beliefs? We tackle this issue head-on, shedding light on societal skepticism and judgment. The episode also brings historical figures like Aleister Crowley into the conversation, highlighting how misrepresentation can lead to unnecessary conflict. We stress the importance of respecting diverse spiritual philosophies while critiquing the hypocrisy of those intolerant of criticism themselves.

We explore the nature of faith and the importance of recognizing our inherent biases when sharing information. We question structured belief systems and emphasize the responsibility of educators and influencers to promote independent research. Wrapping up, we encourage listeners to avoid unnecessary arguments, focus on their spiritual well-being, and consider joining us for a strong cup of coffee in our next episode.

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Transcript

Speaker 1 0:21

Welcome to Pegging Coffee Talk. If you enjoy our content, please consider donating and following our socials. Now here are your hosts, lady Abba and Lord Knight.

Speaker 2 0:33

Alright, Lord Knight. Why is it that it seems like every witch on social media and in podcasts is investing loads and loads of time into debunking key figures and other paths? I have no idea how is this an acceptable practice, though right? So, on one hand, we are the pagan community. Right we right.

Speaker 2 1:07

We accept all paths, we honor all paths we recognize right, everyone's everything, but yet, holy crap, huge, huge amounts of research and time invested in. Well, this person's wrong and I'm going to show you why. And this person is full of shit and made up everything and I'm going to tell you why.

Speaker 3 1:34

And you're going to find this funny, but you know what I think part of it is People are still trying their best to debunk practices like ours, but they're trying to debunk everything, right.

Speaker 2 1:44

Everyone is trying to debunk everything. Right, everyone is trying to debunk everything and I go, wow, good way to suck the spirituality and the joy out of faith. Everyone, bravo, right, that's what they're doing. Someone who is going to a? Pick your term esoteric, pagan, witchcraft, wicca, occultist right.

Speaker 3 2:13

Right.

Speaker 2 2:15

Resource is there, I would hope, to further their spiritual growth and their spiritual connection, and instead what they're being faced with is all of these people going this one's wrong and that one's wrong and this thing. How is that helpful?

Speaker 3 2:35

It really ain't.

Speaker 2 2:36

It's not any different to me than Christian sects pointing fingers. And you know right, the Baptists are wrong, the Pentecostals are wrong how do we prevent that?

Speaker 3 2:49

how do we prevent that in temple?

Speaker 2 2:51

okay, in our temple, in our life temple. Yes, I mean because this, this behavior.

Speaker 3 2:55

What you were talking about is not yeah all right, this is what.

Speaker 2 3:00

when I was coming up, this was what you and the elders at the time called witch politics. Yes, now we don't call it that anymore because, again, social media has overwhelmed this process.

Speaker 2 3:17

But witch politics was always. Yeah, this one believes this. This person believes that our beliefs differ slightly. I don't think what you're practicing is right, wrong or the other, so guess what? The rule is leave your shit at the door. When we come together as a group, you stow that, you tuck it away and you go. You know what? We're operating under a unified means of worship, and my personal whatever doesn't have a place here in this moment okay, because all we're teaching most first degrees, yeah, what are you mainly taught?

Speaker 3 3:54

you are taught how in the world to function. Yes, inside ritual space. The point is to be in ritual space.

Speaker 2 4:02

Yes, and how the hell do you accomplish that when you're so full of anger and you're fired up right Bitterness, and just it's fire and brimstone.

Speaker 3 4:15

Ironically, Everyone's angry. I have heard more Christian bashing. I have heard more of bashing this bashing. I have heard more of bashing this if, if you don't have my values.

Speaker 2 4:30

You know you're a nazi, you're this it. It's so funny you brought up the nazis man. I have never seen more people in craft accused of neo-Nazism than.

Speaker 3 4:45

I have in the last year. I call it bull.

Speaker 2 4:49

What the fuck is going on. So let me get this straight If I like Odin and I'm following a Norse path, I am automatically a neo-Nazi.

Speaker 3 5:01

Now to some people oh, if you have certain beliefs. A neo-Nazi now to some people oh, if you have certain beliefs. There are people out there who believe that me and you, because of the way we believe, would probably be in that Nazi category.

Speaker 2 5:10

That's insane.

Speaker 3 5:12

This is where in the world, the world has moved to.

Speaker 2 5:14

That is insane.

Speaker 3 5:19

And this statement from a guy who has sat here and argued on this podcast multiple times. I don't believe in race. I think it should be put on the shelf with the flat earth theory.

Speaker 2 5:25

Mm-hmm, I cannot believe that we're. And look, I always say this when you and I are taking a more conservative stance. Holy shit, thank you. What is going on out there, people? Because we for anyone who knows us or has interacted, we are not conservative humans. No, but come on, just because someone has a certain belief, the branding, the labeling, the wrongness of certain practices.

Speaker 3 6:05

The judgmental attitude. Remember, this is where we sat there and we said. They said in the American Council of Witches the only animosity we hold to Christianity and any other philosophy of life is that they are the only way. Yeah, we are not the only way.

Speaker 2 6:24

No, we have always said we are a way.

Speaker 2 6:28

A way out of potentially thousands. And what's fucked up? Is this method right? These ideals that are going around are so intense that I can imagine there are people of craft out there right now who are going. You know what I want to do, something. I have an idea, and I want to merge two concepts or two practices that maybe up until now have not been put together, and this is what I want to make the basis for my temple, my organization, and they're afraid, but again, don't get me wrong.

Speaker 3 7:12

People that do this like us. I do not mind criticism, all right. If you're going to come at me, don't be sitting there going. Well, you're unethical because you don't believe this. You don't believe my way, says who.

Speaker 3 7:24

We just had someone listen to our episode on the initiation Left us a message going oh, y'all just evil. Blah, blah, blah. How dare y'all believe this? Y'all were an authoritarian. Blah, blah, blah. And we're like we've never told anyone. This is what we believe, right, and this is why we believe it. If you're going to attack this is what we believe we believe in these principles You're going to have to attack those. You're not going to sit here and make a moral stance.

Speaker 2 7:50

That's my point.

Speaker 3 7:52

Because I can't make a moral stance on this person.

Speaker 2 7:55

And then I look at this and I go when did the pagan community become, one step away from Palestine and Israel? Thank you, Holy shit guys.

Speaker 3 8:07

I don't care what Garnerians do.

Speaker 2 8:09

Right.

Speaker 3 8:10

Why should I? I don't care what the Alexandrians do. It's not my place to. I'm here to tell you what I think.

Speaker 2 8:17

But I am, I'm shocked. I'm shocked by the level that this is going to, and it seems like it's everywhere. And here's what gets me it's all in the name of something scholarly or something that is scientific or educational.

Speaker 3 8:35

Again, there's almost the worship of someone with this degree, if you have a doctorate, if you have a master's. You are more credible than some lonely person, even though that might only be in English or whatever. Sure, but you become more credible. We don't function that way, no we're. We base our respect or not respect on your actions and that's again.

Speaker 2 9:01

That's what I'm shocked by. These actions are intense yes and they are harmful. And at what point? Right, if we continue to constantly point fingers and go they're wrong, they're wrong, they're wrong, they're wrong, we're all wrong, then, yes, and all we're doing is feeding the fuel with faiths outside of us to go. Well, you guys can't even get it together, Right?

Speaker 3 9:28

It really is baffling Again the other faiths are sitting back going we ain't got this problem, they'll rip themselves apart, yeah yeah, and it's happening, and it's happening.

Speaker 2 9:37

This is a very volatile time and you know, I've never been a big fan of the whole love and light and everybody and everything. It's just a little too one-sided for me, is all it comes down to right those practices it seems more like you're giving up your beliefs to make everybody else happy yes, but then. But there's an irony to this, right, because when I look at all of this stuff and I look at someone like selena fox okay, we've met her many times- she's involved in many different things, right selena fox has.

Speaker 2 10:13

For me personally, I've never been a follower, you know like right I look at what selena fox does and I go. It's very nice, but it's a little too fluffy for my taste for me when I see her and I hear her speak.

Speaker 3 10:29

She's still doing that whole 60 thing.

Speaker 2 10:31

Yes, yes, yes, it's hippie based.

Speaker 3 10:34

It's very I find it more tolerable from her because she is just coming from that, because it's genuine, because it's genuine, because it's genuine, absolutely, absolutely. You're like I know this woman lived through this. She knows what she's talking about, what was going on during this time knows what she's talking about, what was going on during this time, but?

Speaker 2 10:54

but what gets me is you don't hear as many people jump onto the back of someone like selena fox because at the end of the day, they go, but she's so nice, she is, she's so nice and she's the most loving woman right and she's so adorable and she's so enthusiastic look, every time I time I've ever met her, I'm just like would you just be my grandma, right, make me some cookies, please, right.

Respecting Diverse Beliefs in Paganism

Speaker 2 11:16

But that's sort of my point. So no one's attacking her, or very few people, right, there's not the same process. But, oh boy, if you have ever taken a stronger stance about your beliefs in paganism, and some of them are more on the left-hand path or you know whatever you want to call it, people, just immediately it's like I'm gonna disprove you. Why, why, fuck off?

Speaker 1 11:46

I mean, is it?

Speaker 3 11:48

Why do people think they deserve representations in other people's beliefs?

Speaker 2 11:53

Oh, oh, that's a good one.

Speaker 3 11:56

I have never figured that out.

Speaker 2 11:58

That's so nice. Yeah, it's true. Why, why?

Speaker 3 12:01

Why.

Speaker 2 12:02

That's a great question.

Speaker 3 12:04

You walk into these doors of your own free will. You walk out of your own free will.

Speaker 2 12:09

Yeah, but. I mean look free will you walk out of your own free will? Yeah, but I mean, look, I believe that it is enough to simply say practitioners of these beliefs as a whole are divisive individuals. You are not going to agree with everything they say. No, you are going to have fault with some of their ideals and you go. Okay, and that's it. Take what you need, leave what you don't, and the rest fuck off.

Speaker 3 12:42

I mean, we interact with people of other temples and other traditions and there are things that they believe that we just think is just yeah, I know, but it's not like we're calling it out on the carpet in front of them, absolutely To try to embarrass them.

Speaker 2 12:55

Who the fuck are we to do that?

Speaker 3 12:57

And then you know look Crowley, because Crowley's been such a figure for so many years, I think it's because we understand those mysteries We've realized that they might believe in this and it might be crap but it might be a lynchpin for about 50 other things, absolutely.

Speaker 2 13:13

But it's the idea that, like right back in his day, when crowley said, let thou will be the whole of the law, right, it was such a strong message against christianity and against the ideas of the will of god versus the will of the self that people latched on to it, right, and you had these huge, huge groups who followed him and who adopted similar beliefs. But now, oh now, everybody's like what do you mean? What do you mean? You can do anything, you want anything and you can hide behind that? No, he never said that. No, read the fucking work before you get all heavy-handed and go down that road of wanting to say that he was a fraud or he was this or he was that.

Speaker 3 13:58

No, it's his tradition and it was his other traditions and it was his philosophy of life right and it is not my place to judge exactly, so let him be. I mean, I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 14:12

There are people who are out there whose philosophy in life is that a carbohydrate should never be consumed, right. There are people whose philosophy in life is that you've got to get up and run 16 miles every single day. There are people whose philosophy in life is that, right, you have to live a minimalist life to live a good life. I mean, everybody has a personal philosophy, right? Does that mean that I am walking into my friend's homes going how the fuck can you live like this? Why are you doing?

Speaker 3 14:45

this why did you put that color on that wall? That's not the color I would have done, exactly, you need to do that. Just move out of my way, I'll just go ahead and paint it while I'm here what? Yeah, it's getting to be out of control and well, the make it even worse is these same people when it, when they have it done to them. What happens when someone questions one of their beliefs? Yeah, when someone does to them what they've been doing, everybody, what happens?

Respecting Individual Beliefs in Faith

Speaker 2 15:12

well, right now it's, you know right. Everybody's canceled and then it becomes. They go on the defensive and then it, it just spirals. It spirals so quickly. And the very nature of any type of faith. And if you cannot say that esoteric practices and occult practices are not based in spirituality, of course they fucking are. But the minute we start doing this, we forget that all faith, all of it, every single faith, is based on some principle of the unbelievable, exactly, principle of the unbelievable, exactly.

Speaker 2 15:51

It's based on some principle of something or multiple somethings that is greater than us but that people could debunk, that people could say, well, that's not right or that's not real. Well, no shit, that's what makes it faith. We can't do like.

Speaker 3 16:09

It's just ridiculous Again, people do not understand the reason we have a police force is because we believe we have a police force. Are you with me, Kind of? As long as we believe in these systems, they exist Well it's like money Sure.

Speaker 2 16:27

It's not any different.

Speaker 3 16:28

It's not any different.

Speaker 2 16:28

Right Paper, it's paper. It holds no actual value. It's not any different. It's not any different. Right Paper, it's paper. It holds no actual value. It's nothing Not A bank note is just that. It's a promissory note from a bank.

Speaker 3 16:38

It's an idea, it's a concept.

Speaker 2 16:39

Yes, it's a concept, but I mean millions upon millions of people's faith is based on a concept. I remember one time getting into a semi-heated discussion with a friend of mine who was Christian because she was talking about literally Jesus teaching Right.

Speaker 3 17:04

Okay.

Speaker 2 17:05

And I said I don't think he did. And she goes what do you mean? Of course he did. And I said no, I mean when Jesus was speaking, when he was alive, I don't think that he was setting out to go. I'm going to teach, Right, I'm going to teach this belief.

Speaker 3 17:25

I'm not sitting down and making out a lesson plan.

Speaker 2 17:28

Right, he was just talking. He was just, it was a discussion, it was philosophical perhaps.

Speaker 3 17:36

It's what we are doing right now.

Speaker 2 17:37

Yes, it wasn't like he was. Yeah, creating a syllabus and creating a class. That wasn't it. The disciples are the ones who did that later.

Speaker 3 17:50

Much later.

Speaker 2 17:51

And so, but she was really, truly convinced that Jesus taught, sermoned, preached like, did these things, and I had to finally take a step back.

Speaker 3 18:03

And I believe he did give sermons to large crowds.

Speaker 2 18:07

Yeah, but again I go. Were they sermons or were they just talks? Were they I don't know that it was any? I mean, remember there was no entertainment, there was no television, there was no like, is it not just someone talking?

Speaker 3 18:20

right, there's this long-haired hippie down the road. Let's go listen to him. See what he says I don't.

Speaker 2 18:26

I don't believe it was as thought out, right as she believed it was, and I and at some point in the conversation I stopped. I just stopped because I said I need to shut my mouth because what I'm doing right now she is perceiving as a direct attack upon her beliefs right and who the fuck am I to tell her she's wrong, exactly right, right. So I was like you know what? I don't know enough.

Speaker 3 18:52

Not my field of expertise.

Speaker 2 18:53

Yeah, that's literally how I backed out and I said you know you could be right. I don't know, and I still don't know if I believe that he really did some of those things. But it doesn't mean I have the right to try to rip away her faith.

Speaker 3 19:07

Well, I mean to semi-think about it in the way he taught is the same way our elders taught us.

Speaker 2 19:14

Right.

Speaker 3 19:14

It is a form of teaching to some extent Right. I mean sort of yeah, it's a weird way to teach, but it's fun.

Speaker 2 19:24

It is. But we really have to look at when we are out there in whatever form, be it us, be it other groups, be it people with podcasts on the internet, whatever means or one of these paths or whatever it is.

Speaker 3 19:54

Are you also peppering in your opinions or your ideas about certain individuals? First and foremost, yes, to sit here and to think everybody's not biased, all right. I'm biased to what I believe, and I think people don't want to admit that to themselves when they're doing certain things.

Speaker 2 20:09

Correct. But if you are out there and you are claiming to be an educator and you are claiming to be someone who is going to distribute this information, check yourself, recognize the bias and be forthright about it. The bias, and be forthright about it. Don't make it come across as fact. Acknowledge the fact that. Okay, you know what. I'm going to deviate for a minute and I'm going to give you my opinion on a particular figure Exactly.

Speaker 2 20:39

I might be right, I might be wrong. Here's my thoughts on it. At least give people that, because without it you just you're starting to formulate another person's ideas prematurely, before they've even had the opportunity to do their own research exactly and, let's be honest, people are fucking lazy well, and let's admit it, how much do we believe the first thing we see? Bingo right. People hear something or they experience something. That's the truth, you know, and some of them never bother to investigate beyond that.

Speaker 3 21:13

No.

Speaker 2 21:14

It's very, very problematic for a society that seems so focused on what's factual.

Speaker 3 21:23

But yet if you're sitting there telling people to do this, to stop, go check people for yourself.

Speaker 2 21:28

Yeah, but for me it's just stop it, stop. We don't have the right. Could you imagine if the Native Americans did this with a tribe structure? Right, tribes have different beliefs, people. Tribes have different leaders. There are similarities, but there are similarities, but there are also dick, could you?

Speaker 3 21:53

and they used to go over war. Yeah, when they had the whole country, they would go over war over the religious belief.

Speaker 2 21:59

But now but now today, with what we know right historically, with everything that has happened to native peoples in this country. Could you imagine if they were still doing that, if the sioux were still fighting with the blackfoot? Why?

Speaker 3 22:14

what would be the point?

Speaker 2 22:15

exactly. We have to be united if we are to survive people seem to have forgotten the whole entire concept.

Speaker 3 22:24

If you attack one religion, you attack all of us oh, and if? One of one religion loses their any rights. Yep, we all do. Yeah, it is dangerous it is.

Speaker 2 22:36

It really really is. And unfortunately, this also brings about the conversation of things that even we have talked about in this light Scientology yeah, jehovah's Witnesses. Right, it's real easy to go. Oh, they're a cult.

Speaker 4 22:54

Well, you know what?

Speaker 2 22:56

There are plenty of people who believe it. So again it's like who am I to take their faith? Now, big picture is it harmful? The jehovah's?

Speaker 3 23:13

I have never heard you know I've never even heard him say a harsh word that's my point, and and I mean you walk out and go.

Speaker 2 23:24

Thank you, bye yes and they're okay they're I mean they're not a violent people. Everything they do is based on volunteers. You know, there are aspects of what the Jehovah's do that I think are kind of okay.

Speaker 3 23:40

I mean, look, I'm not going to sit there and set my hair on fire.

Speaker 2 23:45

No, no, I mean.

Speaker 3 23:47

That's the part that gets me wrong is when these stuff happens and these people just listen, I'm gonna be honest, like with the jehovah's.

Speaker 2 23:55

There's a part of me that every time I see the young men on their bicycles in their suits, I think good for them. These young men are gonna have some structure, they're gonna have a sense of pride and order, and it's going to take much longer to get that pot belly yeah they.

Speaker 2 24:15

There's something about this that is okay and I mean again, they're not harming anyone. Now, scientology, of course. Yes, they've come under fire for a lot of misguided practices and things there, and yes, and I think main, most people's main hatred is there are more pushful tactics yeah, it's the monetary component of it and it just yeah, you know, but but hey, you do you exactly.

Speaker 2 24:42

And there it is. At the end of the day, you do, you boo. We are no one to say that someone else is wrong, that their faith, their belief thing, that they made, whatever it is, is wrong if it is serving a purpose in their life. Shut up, just shut up, just stop. Leave them be discuss that Share, but stop condemning.

Speaker 3 25:11

I mean because at no point have I ever figured out a way to break the whole entire logic of self-initiation. If one believes one's a witch, then one's a witch. How do you break that?

Speaker 2 25:21

You don't.

Speaker 3 25:22

There's no way to break that logic.

Speaker 2 25:24

You don't I mean.

Speaker 3 25:25

The reality is simply yes, it is Now what bothers me is when people think, just because they have that title, that I automatically should give them some type of respect or see them as such.

Speaker 2 25:37

But you know what?

Speaker 3 25:38

And you're kind of like what does this have to do with me and how I see you? Well?

Speaker 2 25:43

I mean again to me. I don't liken it much differently to the way I see Catholicism. When I was growing up I went through all the sacraments except marriage. I was not married into the, the catholic church, but the way I view it is at confirmation, which is the big one. You know right, you know the, the, all the religious studies that you did come up to that point as a Christian or as a Catholic. Prior to my confirmation, I was no less a Christian, right, I was no less a Catholic. There was an additional knowledge bestowed upon those kids of saying you have come to a place in your spiritual growth and your path that, should you choose to enter the seminary, to enter the monastery, you are prepared to do it.

Speaker 3 26:43

Right, you can start from this point on, to move down that path.

Speaker 2 26:46

Yes, and I see initiation in a similar fashion. It's not that we're saying prior to initiation, you're not a witch, no. But after initiation, there is a level of credibility and of recognition for the efforts.

Speaker 3 27:08

There is sort of a seal of approval. Yes, Because again you're being initiated and you're being witnessed by other people being initiated into that.

Speaker 2 27:16

Exactly, but you put in the work, you did it. That is different than the self-appointed Right, that's all.

Speaker 3 27:25

This is your graduation.

Speaker 2 27:26

Yes, yes, and one of them for that One of them.

Speaker 3 27:29

Yes, yes.

Speaker 2 27:30

And one of them for that One of them, yeah, but I mean, I don't view it any differently than that, but yes, by comparison. As a kid growing up as Catholic, I remember talking to friends who were Christian, of other faiths, and they were mesmerized by some of those practices the confirmation, the first communion. They were like what the hell, why?

Speaker 3 27:51

I'm still mesmerized by it.

Speaker 2 27:53

But it was that system of order and preparation. It was an understanding of where you are in the grand scheme of your journey.

Speaker 3 28:03

Well again and most people keep on forgetting. Religion is like your first Doctor who. Whatever doctor you see, the first time is your doctor and you will watch them loyally, no matter what. You with me. I mean again me sitting here and downing any other religion, because I've only ever known this structure. This is what I was raised in.

Speaker 2 28:24

Right.

Speaker 3 28:25

So of course, other religions are going to look foreign to me.

Speaker 2 28:29

Right.

Speaker 3 28:29

And we're flat out told hey, this is what's going to happen.

Speaker 2 28:31

Right.

Navigating Beliefs With Respect

Speaker 3 28:32

And you know what. There's no use in arguing or debating anybody. They are allowed to believe what they're believing.

Speaker 2 28:39

Yeah, absolutely, so stop taking it away. Stop trying to take it away. And, for the love of God, anyone who is doing that, who's trying to take it away, and, for the love of god, anyone who is doing that who's trying to to debunk someone else. Take what they say with a grain of salt. Understand that those people. Not only are they coming to the table with a bias, they're angry, but quit watching their videos, quit reading their material, just walk away from them maybe I wouldn't necessarily say that that's entirely necessary.

Speaker 3 29:10

I mean, if this is all they're doing.

Speaker 2 29:12

Be cautious. Yeah, understand that there's something else fueling that behavior and again, it really is a matter of is this beneficial to your spiritual growth or not? And, if it's not, walk away, preferably towards the coffee.

Speaker 3 29:29

I could use some coffee, okay.

Speaker 1 29:32

Thanks for listening. Join us next week for another episode. Pagan Coffee Talk is brought to you by Life Temple and Seminary. Please visit us at lifetempelseminaryorg for more information, as well as links to our social media.

Speaker 4 29:59

Facebook, Discord, Twitter, YouTube and Reddit, and so it is the end of our day so walk with me till morning breaks. And so it is the end of our day. So walk with me till morning breaks.