Navigating Multiple Covens & The Natural vs. Man-Made Debate

Can participating in multiple covens at once lead to spiritual growth, or does it create more chaos than clarity? We tackle this question head-on, exploring the complexities and potential pitfalls of splitting loyalties between different pagan traditions. We discuss the importance of maintaining commitment to a single coven to avoid confusion and conflicting teachings, while also considering the motives behind individuals seeking to learn multiple traditions. We also touch on the nuances of visiting sister covens within the same tradition and the potential red flags seen by covens when members collect degrees from various temples. Through our insights, we emphasize that true understanding and respect for a tradition are best achieved through full immersion.

The natural vs. man-made materials debate is more nuanced than it seems. Are plastics truly man-made, or are they just misunderstood products of the natural world? We examine the origins of materials like plastic and how they compare to natural processes such as bees making honey. Delving into the practical implications for modern pagans striving to use natural materials, we reflect on the pervasive presence of synthetic products and the environmental challenges they present. We invite you to rethink your approach to pagan practices in a contemporary context, questioning whether rejecting technology and plastics is truly feasible or even necessary in today's world. Join us for a thought-provoking discussion that challenges conventional wisdom and sparks new ways of thinking.

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Transcript

Speaker 1 0:21

Welcome to Pagan Coffee Talk. If you enjoy our content, please consider donating and following our socials. Now here are your hosts, lord Knight and Oswin. So here's this thing I think we need to discuss. Okay, somebody a student, I believe not too long ago, was asking about being a part of two different covens right and we said we don't practice that because to us that's splitting loyalties, right, and we kind of got a funny look right.

Speaker 2 0:58

So let's discuss splitting loyalties first of all, if you're going to two different temples, you're being taught two different traditions simultaneously Right, while there might be some overlap, there won't be a lot. And then you still have the whole entire process of they may teach different stuff than you.

Speaker 1 1:18

Well, I was going to say, is that also the case? If you're within the same tradition, so say like we had a sister coven or we had a branch off.

Speaker 2 1:28

They should be close enough to where it wouldn't matter.

Speaker 1 1:32

But would that still be like splitting loyalties?

Speaker 2 1:36

If you're going to go for a visit, then no Again, you're always going to refer back to your main coven that you're under Okay For advice and teaching, and this is so you don't get in. We don't have this whole entire high priest against high priest and priesthood. You know, using the parents against each other.

Speaker 1 2:00

Right.

Speaker 2 2:00

You with me.

Speaker 1 2:01

Yeah.

Speaker 2 2:02

And again, sometimes certain traditions teach certain things that other traditions don't, and some of these things could be a linchpin to other stuff that a different temple, not Like us in Ravenwood. Ravenwood's teaching and process is completely different than ours, right? Imagine trying to do both of them simultaneously. Oh, I couldn't even imagine. And there are certain things that they teach that we don't teach. Okay, that is specific to their tradition. All right, now we might have known about them and heard about them, but I'm not going to teach them. They're not mine, right, absolutely. So again, you have that problem about splitting loyalties, the difference in teachings and stuff like that. I see where it causes problems. Also, it's easy to be sitting there and you talking to a high priest or priestess about what another temple is teaching you. All right, okay, those certain things are left inside temple, like what Temple business is temple's business? Hmm, their business is their business.

Speaker 2 3:08

There's certain lines we don't want you to cross okay, I mean I'm not sitting there saying that we're some grand, grand planned or whatever behind closed doors.

Speaker 1 3:18

I mean nobody needs to know our temple's business besides us so then, why would anybody even want to want to do this? I mean, to me it just seems more like it's I'm putting myself in a position where I'm gonna be torn. If I'm like dividing my time right equally between two different covens, yeah, I feel like that's putting me in a position, in an awkward position.

Speaker 2 3:48

Yes.

Speaker 1 3:49

Me personally.

Speaker 2 3:50

Yes.

Speaker 1 3:51

So why would I even want to do that? Exactly, much less the potential for divulging temple business that really doesn't belong anywhere else outside of that particular coven, exactly, I mean that particular coven Exactly.

Speaker 2 4:06

I mean, that's one problem. I mean, don't get me wrong, I understand those who they're wanting to learn and they're treating this more like I want to go and learn all these different traditions so I'll know more, so I can understand some of these people's accomplishment in trying to do that.

Speaker 1 4:25

Right, I can do that. Right, I can see that too. But I mean, if I wanted to learn about oh, I don't know gardenarians, right, right, and I wanted to learn how they operate and things like that, I still don't see where I can equally be a part of my tradition while still trying to learn theirs. I think it's something you, if you're going for one thing and this is my personal opinion I think, if you're going for one thing like that and you're trying to learn something, you need to submerse yourself into that.

Speaker 1 5:02

Well yeah, it's kind of like learning another language because a lot of times those programs like Babbel or they will try to get you to submerse yourself into the language, into the language.

Speaker 2 5:17

Right, turn your voice over and try to do everything in that language.

Speaker 1 5:23

Put your headphones on and for an hour. This is all you're going to do. You're just going to submerge yourself into this thing and that's it.

Speaker 2 5:29

Right, you're just going to. If you're learning Japanese, you're going to listen to Japanese anime untranslated Right, so I don't see how this is feasible. Well, I can understand that, all right. Well, again, again. It was just like the people, the people who do go out there and do go to multiple temples and have multiple first degrees at multiple temples. All right, okay, this. This raises up several different questions. When you're talking to traditionals, a did you, what was the reason for moving from some one temple to another, to another?

Speaker 1 6:10

right and was each temple aware of?

Speaker 2 6:12

and you're getting your first degree there. So it's not like you were just there for a couple of times and was like no, this ain't for me right. You went, you got your degree, then you moved on. So what are you really up to? But see that's. I mean it's sort of a red flag for some temples to kind of be going.

Speaker 1 6:34

Yeah, but that's not to me. That's not really dividing loyalties or splitting your loyalties, because you've gone through that whole process. That's just. They're collectors to me.

Speaker 2 6:46

I don't know what else to call them? They're just collectors. If you're being initiated to each one of these traditions, you're giving your loyalty to each one of them as you're doing this. To a certain extent, this is what you're doing.

Speaker 1 7:02

I guess that would depend on the coven or the temple, the church, whatever you want to call it. I guess that would depend on the coven or the temple, the church, whatever you want to call it. I think that would depend on that group as to what they expect out of you Once you've gotten your first degree with them.

Speaker 2 7:13

Well, I guess it's technically. What does it take to be a member? To to where. This is where your loyalties is. Where's that line to where in the world? Okay, from here on out. This loyalties is where's that line to where in the world? Okay, from here on out. This is. This is your home temple. This is where we expect you to be now. Of course, if you're five hours away, we understand that.

Speaker 1 7:30

You're not going to show up for every ritual right, but that's what I'm saying I think it would depend on the group, because part of our initiation process is we tell you what we expect out of you as a first degree right, but we initiate you into first degree first, and part of that thing is you're swearing oaths and loyalties and, yes, all right.

Speaker 2 7:54

Then you leave this temple without pulling your membership. Go somewhere else and learn that tradition and go learn how to be a gardenerian say I'm some stranger and I got my first degree through life temple and seminary.

Speaker 1 8:08

And then I tell you I don't think group ritual is for me, I'm going to be solitaire well, fine, because then you're still haven't pulled my membership but you're doing solitaire but I'm not doing solitaire. I'm going to the coven down the road. Well see, and that's where I'm now.

Speaker 2 8:25

I'm going to study and that'sitaire, I'm going to the coven down the road and now I'm going to study and that's where I'm going to say your best bet is just to say look, I'm not going to pull my membership, but I'm going to go over here and do this because the only thing that's going to be said to you is fine, that's all. Just remember this tradition mysteries are this tradition's mysteries? Please don't reveal them.

Speaker 1 8:51

But who's to say they're not going to do that?

Speaker 2 8:54

Well, we hope you wouldn't break your oaths to the gods. Right, I'm just saying no judging, no, no judgment, but I mean are you?

Speaker 2 9:03

with Bam. No judging, no, no judgment, no judgment. Okay, but I mean, but are you with me? Yeah, then we fall into that category. But again I'm back to I can see where it's easily wind up, being that playing two different temples off of each other, and I'm sorry, people were gossipy people. Oh yeah, you know, it's easy to sit there going. Yeah, I was over there at the temple the other day. We were doing ritual and such and such, pissed off somebody else, and it really is not that big of a deal. But then next thing, you know, telephone happens and you've got this big old scandal you're having to deal with. That ain't real Right? Yeah, now that's ruffling feathers. So again, here's where this becomes a problem, because most temples, most work, we're close.

Speaker 1 9:55

All right, I'm not going to sit here and say we're your friends, you that, but we are close and we should feel free to say certain things in front of people well, and and I also know that you know like as far as the collectors go, I know that when people come to us, if they say that they're degreed, one of our questions is going to be where did you get your degree?

Speaker 2 10:19

Yeah, I mean.

Speaker 1 10:20

There's your priestess.

Speaker 2 10:22

Right, you would show up with a letter of recommendation.

Speaker 1 10:27

Well, and if you don't, we're going to reach out to that temple and ask for a recommendation Right. And that's part of how we kind of get around that.

Speaker 2 10:40

Yeah, because you don't know, they could have been banished for doing something inappropriate.

Speaker 1 10:46

Right. Are there other ways to discourage people from splitting their loyalties?

Speaker 2 10:54

there's no way to actually stop anyone from doing it. You know what I mean. Right, it's going to have to be a moral decision each individual makes. We have a lot of members who live off in areas by themselves and can't come to ritual.

Speaker 1 11:10

Right.

Speaker 2 11:10

And no, I don't have a problem with them going to a temple to attend ritual with others, because they can't come here on a regular basis.

Speaker 2 11:19

No, I mean, that just makes sense. That just makes sense. But then they're not here on a regular basis to really you know what I mean. Right, and if it does get to a point where it's like these people have become more like family, I'm just going to go ahead and pull my membership, move it over here. That's a simple phone call, whatever. Sure it is, yeah, whatever. That's a simple phone call, sure it is. Yeah, whatever. And done and over with. You're not splitting your loyalties, then. And personally, I think it shows, even if you are leaving because there's bad blood, it shows respect to the priests and priestesses you're taking over with. You know that you're walking into, right, that you're like look, I'm not going to shit, you know I might have bad blood with my old high priest or priestess or people at that temple. Look, I'm not going to shit, you know I might have bad blood with my old high priest or priestess or people at that temple, but I'm not going to shame them right and I'm not.

Speaker 1 12:04

I'm not going to bring that bullshit.

Speaker 2 12:05

I'm not going to and I'm not bringing that bullshit here. So I'm into my membership here, going over here, everything's official up and up and I'm not going to talk about why I'm leaving yeah, I.

Speaker 1 12:17

I think that's the right thing to do.

Speaker 2 12:18

I mean these things happen, you know they do people. Sometimes people just don't get along when you put a large group of people together. You know, if you've ever worked anywhere where there's what more than 500 people, there's always out. There's that one person that drives you up the wall, and you're either lucky that you only see them briefly in between shifts or whatever. And right.

Speaker 1 12:43

But see, I think with a larger group I think it's easier to deal with, because then you do have that potential where you don't really have to be around that person or those people quite as much. I think it's more difficult with the smaller groups exactly. Exactly Because you're more close-knit Right, you don't have as many ways to quote-unquote, escape or avoid those people or those situations.

Speaker 2 13:08

Exactly. I mean, well, you know, we tell you in Temple. You know if, first of all, if you have a problem with someone in Temple, the best bet is for you and that person to sit down and hash it out, right, hey look, I don't like this. Blah, blah, blah. Don't matter if you meant to or not, take it at that and keep on going. Marry the hatchet, because, again, if it becomes too much of a disruption, then high priest and priestesses will step in and then nobody's happy right by the end, by the time he gets to the end of it all.

Speaker 2 13:44

Right, because if you can't solve the problem, we will yeah, and nobody, nobody usually likes those results yes, because those results normally be well. Y'all two can take y'all's problems and go way over there and the rest of us are going to stay right here and y'all can go hate yourself over there not with us, right? Both of you and most people wig out when they hear uh huh. The majority of times, that's the best solution, because there is no wrong or right in certain situations.

Speaker 1 14:17

No, there's not. You know, especially when you're trying to be fair. Right, let's go get some coffee, let's do it.

Speaker 2 14:25

Lord Oswin, I have a question for you. Uh-oh, what is man-made? Well, I mean technically what is man-made.

Speaker 1 14:36

I would say man-made is considered like anything that you can't find in nature really yeah, are you sure not really.

Speaker 2 14:46

But all right, because if that's my best guess, but if I take flint, which is a natural material, and crack it which does happen naturally during rock slides, sure and you get these sharp pieces of and I attach it to a piece of wood and tie it up, suddenly these natural items became man-made no, no no, no they did not become man-made.

Speaker 1 15:11

What you made becomes man-made but, even then it doesn't really, because it's made with natural materials.

Speaker 2 15:18

So because, again, when we think nowadays, how technical are we getting on this?

Speaker 1 15:22

is that what you're getting at?

Speaker 2 15:23

again, how technical. Because again plastic, we say it's man-made. No, it's not its normal form, but the materials are naturally found in the earth right, they do naturally occur they naturally occur. They don't naturally occur in the way we have them now right? No, we have to take like several different elements to break these down and rebuild certain compounds and stuff like that. But technically all those are natural materials true so where is that line?

Speaker 2 15:58

because it's still atoms, it's still molecule, it's still the natural. It's not like what they're doing at CERN, where they're suddenly creating a new element there you go again all right. Well, no, I mean, scientists do this all the time. Creating new elements is a piece of cake for them, right?

Speaker 1 16:16

Right? No, I think honestly I don't know. I think it depends on how big of an activist you are, how far you want to take it on a technicality issue.

Speaker 2 16:27

I mean because even because I mean, like raw crude oil is a natural material.

Speaker 1 16:33

It comes out of the ground?

Speaker 2 16:34

Sure it is. Yeah, I mean for decades before we'd learned how to use it, it was a blight in farms, because everything you couldn't grow, no right but it's not man-made. But when you talk about oil, everybody just automatically goes well, it's man-made. I've never heard anybody say that. Everybody seems to have the idea that oil is man-made. It's not part of the natural world.

Speaker 1 16:59

Are you with me? Yeah, that's a new one on me, but no, it's not. It's completely natural.

Speaker 2 17:05

I mean now plastic's not, but plastic's not natural, but the materials that make up the plastic is.

Speaker 1 17:13

Well see, I think that's the technicality there. Plastic is not a natural material. It's made up of natural material, Just like our axe, but it is not. Plastic is not a natural material.

Speaker 2 17:28

That's man-made Right.

Speaker 1 17:33

And that's kind of where I draw the line. It doesn't naturally occur. Maybe what it's made up of does.

Speaker 2 17:41

Well, I mean there's um, oh God, you get rubber from the rubber trees, cause what is the sap or something that you got to? I have no idea Not my area.

Speaker 1 17:52

There's a natural material Right, but it's not the material that we know. It still gets processed right, but it gets processed with other stuff to make stuff. Make things like tires and wheels for our desk chairs and but.

Speaker 2 18:08

But yet bees take nectar and other things, combine them together and make honey. We consider that natural, but this is not its natural form. It's created.

Speaker 1 18:22

Yeah, but honey's also edible. I mean, come on.

Speaker 2 18:27

But again, it's still technically what's going on here.

Speaker 1 18:33

It's a natural product, though.

Speaker 2 18:36

No, it's a bee-made product, oh good Lord. So again my question is what are natural materials and what aren't? Now again, we tell everybody, like, your robe needs to be made out of natural materials. Cotton linen, preferably, something light and breezy and breezy, right, but are we really going to have? You think either one of us is going to have a fit if somebody brings in and actually has one that's like 50% polyester, not really.

Speaker 1 19:10

No so, but what's this? What does this have to do with paganism?

Speaker 2 19:16

We talk about always using natural materials, but the more I keep on thinking about it, there's nothing around us as the natural world. There's these processes going on all the time, creating things, breaking things down sure all right. So again, why do we have such a bad rejection of this?

Speaker 3 19:40

the cars, the, the, the do you see what I'm saying?

Speaker 2 19:44

most pagans that we we reject this technology and stuff or we try to reject this technology and stuff, or we try to. I don't really know I guess it's because things like plastics.

Speaker 1 19:56

Well, again, it's just because of the way they're made, the factories, the pollution well, again, we all have the microplastics.

Speaker 2 20:03

Well, sure, yeah, you know, men's testosterone levels are dropping, possibly because of all these microplastics yeah so I see where, don't remember. I see where we, why we don't like this? Because we, we want to live in a clean environment yeah but at the same time, what are we supposed to do? How do you get rid of all these plastics? I mean?

Speaker 1 20:28

you can't right now, they're so intertwined and into society I mean, that's like the videos.

Speaker 2 20:33

Have you seen the videos that keep on coming out where the woman goes? Can you please explain to me? You know we go to the store. Our meat comes in plastic, this, oh yeah, and it's this long list.

Speaker 1 20:42

Yeah, this is wrapped in plastic. We have plastic bags. Oh look, this one's wrapped in plastic, this one's packaged in plastic. And then they want us to use reusable bags.

Speaker 2 20:52

Make it make sense. All right, this is my crooks of all this in paganism is why are we doing this? This does not make sense.

Speaker 1 21:03

Right, it's not really making a big difference in anything.

Speaker 2 21:06

You know, I mean, it's not like you're sitting there going no, I want a butcher back there and I want to get my mate and they have to wrap it up in the paper, which I like the paper better and you get it taken home. I like this idea. I mean, we got a little butchers down here. I love going down there and getting the steak and whatever.

Speaker 2 21:28

It's a whole lot more fresher and all this, but we don't do it. Why, convenience? It's more expensive. Well, yeah, it is more expensive, but would you not pay more money for better customer service?

Speaker 1 21:44

I've been known to. I've been known to.

Speaker 2 21:48

I like good customer service.

Speaker 1 21:49

Yeah, so do you think we've made too much of this?

Speaker 2 21:56

We've made too big of a deal out of it. Sometimes I think we've made too much of a big deal out of the wrong issue. It's kind of like, you know, I hear us all talking about, you know, recycling and all this other stuff, but the truth of the matter is the majority of the plastic can't be recycled that, and then, too, I rented a a place from a lady not too long ago and she was talking about how, where she is, they are.

Speaker 1 22:24

They encourage you to recycle? Yeah, but there was a couple of things that she found out about it. One she's having to pay to recycle.

Speaker 2 22:32

Yes.

Speaker 1 22:34

And two, when they come to pick up the recyclables, it all goes to the freaking landfill.

Speaker 2 22:39

Yeah.

Speaker 1 22:40

Just like the regular trash, yeah, so they're not even doing anything with it.

Speaker 2 22:43

No, it is an out and out scam.

Speaker 1 22:46

So you want to make a big deal about something. How about? Why are we paying to recycle when it's not even being recycled?

Speaker 2 22:53

But the real solution here is quit using plastics. Quit buying products in plastic things.

Speaker 1 23:01

I would say try to do that as much as possible.

Speaker 2 23:04

Possible Reach out to it.

Speaker 1 23:06

It's going to be hard to get rid of.

Speaker 2 23:07

Well, again this is where emailing these companies going. Look hey, can y'all quit wrapping the meat in plastic? Can we do something else?

Speaker 1 23:15

Right, my dog chewed up a piece of your plastic and you know, had a hard time passing it. Can we find? Another type of packaging deal.

Speaker 2 23:23

Can we do something? I mean, there's the real problem.

Speaker 1 23:37

What was so bad about the glass bottles we used to have all the time.

Speaker 2 23:38

Well, I mean aside from the fact that they were breakable, but, oh please, we never really had a problem breaking them. How do you break? It took a lot to break one of them coke bottles yeah, I gotta say they were pretty sturdy.

Speaker 2 23:46

I mean, those things were thick and under and there was actually a good bit of pressure in there. Yeah, they were pretty sturdy, you know. I mean no, I know we can't get rid of 100% of all plastics, right. But again, if you start telling these companies quit using them and, oh my God, don't let them be sneaky about it like they do everything else, sure, this is 30% less than what it really was, and then you find out it's some little loophole thing that they got away with.

Speaker 1 24:17

You're like really this is 30 recycled materials. It's at 30 for the whole mass manufacturing thing so that each one's only like maybe two percent recycled material.

Speaker 2 24:34

Just saying just saying I mean, don't get me wrong, there are some things that are easily recycled. Sure, aluminum cans and stuff like that metal metal's the easiest thing to recycle right that old rusted out thing. Melt, melt it down, bring it back. Absolutely, it still works. There are these things we should do Now. You shouldn't let your car have the old leak, that leaks, and get them fixed Right. These are the things we actually need to be discussing. This is where this pollution comes from. Pollution don't always just come from the big company up the street. Oh Lord no.

Speaker 1 25:16

All right? No, we all do our fair share of pollution every day.

Speaker 2 25:19

Your neighbors are doing more pollution and you are doing more pollution than you think you're doing.

Speaker 1 25:23

Yep, anything else. I think that's it. We'll get more coffee.

Speaker 2 25:29

Oh God yes.

Speaker 1 25:30

Thanks for listening. Join us next week for another episode. Pagan Coffee Talk is brought to you by Life Temple and Seminary. Please visit us at lifetempelseminaryorg for more information, as well as links to our social media Facebook, discord, twitter, youtube and Reddit.

Speaker 3 25:48

We travel down this trodden path, the maze of stone and mire. Just hold my hand as we pass by a sea of blazing pyres.

Speaker 1 26:02

And so it is the end of our day so walk with me till morning breaks.

Speaker 3 26:09

And so it is the end of our days. So walk with me till morning breaks.