Bridging Traditions: Adapting Pagan Practices in a Changing World

How do we balance the wisdom of age-old traditions with the realities of our changing world? Join us on Pagan Coffee Talk as we tackle this pressing question and more. We ponder whether longstanding pagan customs, like ceasing the harvest after Samhain, should evolve to fit modern climates, especially in warmer regions. With the planet's climate shifting and younger generations stepping into leadership roles within covens, can we maintain the essence of these traditions while adapting them to our current environment? This episode promises an exploration of how ancient practices might hold their ground or transform in response to today's challenges.

But the conversation doesn't stop there. We also venture into the realms of the hypothetical, considering how religious practices might change in the face of phenomena like polar shifts or even contact with extraterrestrial life. As new leaders emerge, bringing fresh perspectives that sometimes clash with established norms, we discuss the role of elders in guiding these transformations to ensure a harmonious evolution of beliefs. Prepare for a thought-provoking journey that questions the adaptability of our customs in a rapidly changing world and seeks to bridge generational divides, fostering a more inclusive pagan community.

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Transcript

Speaker 1 0:17

Welcome to Peg and Coffee Talk. If you enjoy our content, please consider donating and following our socials. Enjoy our content, please consider donating and following our socials. All right, so we're coming up on, of course, the Samhain season here. There are some traditions that have been passed down, like harvesting not harvesting anything after Samhain.

Speaker 2 0:39

Right, there are certain traditions and things that we talk about, and it's more of a question should we keep on?

Speaker 1 0:46

doing it Right. Is it outdated?

Speaker 2 0:50

Right, or do we need to change that based on our environment or so forth and so on?

Speaker 1 0:56

I mean, we've long said yeah, we've long said that you know, this is, it's a way of life for us, right? And when things aren't practical, we make changes.

Speaker 2 1:09

Well, for, like farming, we live in the southern part of the United States. Yes, we do. Growing season's a little bit longer than the average compared to some of the northern states. Yeah, all right. Or to the British Isles.

Speaker 1 1:23

Because normally after sowing in some of the northern states, yeah, all right.

Speaker 2 1:25

Or to the British Isles, because normally after sowing in some of these places it's too cold to grow anyway. True.

Speaker 1 1:34

Well, I mean, there are some things that grow during the winter, but you don't harvest them.

Speaker 2 1:39

No, no, I mean, you got like garlic that you plant now and you won't be harvesting that for like six months.

Speaker 1 1:48

Right, right, but again you're not harvesting anything.

Speaker 2 1:51

No.

Speaker 1 1:52

But where we are, we could potentially still harvest.

Speaker 2 1:57

True, but think about it like this crops like pumpkins and stuff like that. That are fall crops that we don't until closer to sow, when actually picked, because they don't ripen until closer to the fall season, but because of our growing thing. Our growing thing don't match up to what we teach traditionally of the will of the year all the time.

Speaker 1 2:21

No, it doesn't. All right I think it's good to know that, you know. I think it's good to to know the past history behind it, but, like I said before, if it's not practical, well should we continue?

Speaker 2 2:34

well, I'm sorry if I lived in california or florida. I mean, am I really going to not pick that tomato that's growing? I mean, are you with me? Yeah, I mean because if I lived in florida, yes, I could grow tomatoes for a longer period of time, because it's warmer down there. It doesn't get as cold now I know where we are that sometime around south wind, we're going to get a frost and it's going to kill off my tomato plants yeah ain't nothing I can do about that?

Speaker 2 3:03

no, but it happens around that time. So should we base some of these? Should we take some of these traditions that we have based around these times and actually convert them closer to our seasonal time versus that will of the year calendar that we use?

Speaker 1 3:23

well, yeah, I think, for our region we probably should that will of the year calendar that we use. Well, yeah, I think for our region we probably should. I mean, it only makes sense.

Speaker 2 3:33

I think it should be based on your region. Well then, that also brings up the whole entire question of does that mean the Sabbath change?

Speaker 1 3:44

Why would they?

Speaker 2 3:46

Well, I mean, if you're not doing the last harvest until the end of November versus October, should that not be when you're celebrating Samhain Because it's the end of your summer? It's the last harvest.

Speaker 1 4:00

No see, I think that's going a bit too far.

Speaker 2 4:03

Well, I mean, that's part of this conversation. How far do we go with this? What don't we do? What do we do?

Speaker 1 4:08

Yeah, no, no, I think that's going too far with it. I think you just move the harvest and then you just acknowledge the fact that traditionally, the last harvest was around this time. But because of our region it's not so much.

Speaker 2 4:26

Well, I mean for again, like for us in our area, it's a little iffy. We sort of sometimes do and sort of sometimes don't follow the correct seasons of where we're located at, Because sometimes it's warmer than sometimes it's colder. I mean, what was it? August, not too long ago? We had like a month of cold weather out of nowhere. I mean, that's not the stuff I'm talking about. I'm just talking about the normal seasonal changes that don't always happen everywhere at the same time.

Speaker 1 4:56

Again, I think, when you're talking about changing the Sabbaths.

Speaker 2 5:01

Right.

Speaker 1 5:03

I mean, I just did a quick search and even astrologically Right. Samhain falls like somewhere around the 6th November. The 6th. November the 6th, so it's still right in that timeframe of when we typically celebrate.

Speaker 2 5:20

Anyway.

Speaker 1 5:21

So I don't think, I don't think you can change that.

Speaker 2 5:25

Well, now, now let's bring up when we're talking about changing in time and all this, all right. The Earth is slowing down each year, so the length of day is slightly getting longer at each time. When do you think we should start to address those problems? Basically, when we get to the point where leap year is every other year and not every four years. At some point that will happen?

Speaker 1 5:57

How long is it going to be before that happens?

Speaker 2 6:01

Again. I think it's something we need to start thinking about now when discussing as religious leaders on what? Where are we going to go at in the future? How are we going to look at this?

Speaker 1 6:11

Okay, but that could be 100 years down the road. Again 100 years down the road, none of us will be here.

Speaker 2 6:18

Well, now I could argue that way. Yeah, we do believe in reincarnation.

Speaker 1 6:26

True.

Speaker 2 6:29

So, yes, we could be around in 100 years.

Speaker 1 6:33

Okay, maybe not in this body well, I mean, yeah, if you want to start talking about it, I say we go ahead and start talking about it. I mean, when things start changing to that extent, yeah, we may have to make some modifications. We may have to, you know, if we eventually, if the days eventually get back to the point where we're following a lunar calendar again.

Speaker 2 6:59

Well, again, this whole entire thing I mean as we go to the extremes of this is okay. What happens if the conspiracy theories are right about the polar shifts?

Speaker 1 7:12

How much?

Speaker 2 7:12

is that going to mess up our religion, considering we're based on cycles where the North Pole suddenly becomes the South Pole and the South Pole suddenly becomes the North Pole?

Speaker 1 7:23

Well then where?

Speaker 2 7:26

Are you with me?

Speaker 1 7:28

I mean, if you're changing the poles like that, then you know we're just, we will have to make adjustments.

Speaker 2 7:35

I mean I mean, what adjustments do we make? How do we? Are you with me? Do we just do it everything completely? Do we just do it Everything completely? We just flip everything. Yes, you know, instead of casting circles clockwise, we always do counterclockwise versus. Yes, I mean literally.

Speaker 1 7:56

I mean you got to go with the, with the flow of energy, right. Yeah, and if the flow of energy is going counterclockwise because of your region. Wouldn't you cast your circle counterclockwise?

Speaker 2 8:11

Well, that's what I'm asking Do we? Do we continue to do that? I mean yeah, no, okay, we're playing pretend here. We're pretending like a polar shift or whatever wouldn't destroy everything and life would be going on very next day, Right, and they're sitting there going. Oh well, duh, what do we do now?

Speaker 1 8:32

Right.

Speaker 2 8:33

I mean because there is a lot of things in society that are based on all these things like clocks. Clocks rotate in a certain direction. Are we going to change that too, as a society, you know?

Speaker 1 8:49

Well, I mean, it's not like below the equator clocks run counterclockwise.

Speaker 2 8:54

Either I mean again, I'm like you. No, it doesn't.

Speaker 1 8:57

So I don't see where that would be affected by anything.

Speaker 2 9:02

Well. I guess it would just depend on where each tradition decides to draw those lines. You know, I can see a tradition sitting there going no, even before this happened, we always did it clockwise. So we're always going to do it clockwise because that's tradition.

Speaker 1 9:19

Right.

Speaker 2 9:19

But I can also see where in the world some people go. Well, no, because the world's changed, we have to change too. And again causing another division between the two in the same traditions, I mean it's very possible.

Speaker 1 9:33

It happens all the time.

Speaker 2 9:36

I wonder what in the world certain outside influences have on our traditions when we start thinking about this. What do we do? I'm being serious and everybody's probably going to listen to this going. Okay, he's lost his mind, but what do we do when aliens do show up? There's nothing in our belief system that says they don't exist.

Speaker 1 9:57

Right, right.

Speaker 2 9:58

Like there are in certain other traditions or in certain other religions that this is the only world and there's nothing, and nothing said, they don't so right, and there's nothing that tells us how to handle that type of situation either.

Generational Changes in Pagan Community

Speaker 1 10:10

So I think that's going to be. I think, if that ever happens, that's going to be an individual basis, and when I say individual I mean you know we speak covens.

Speaker 2 10:21

So yeah I think that's going to be up to the coven oh, what to do and leadership to say okay, no, this is the way we're going to go, versus this way and well, again, if you're a coven and you're doing that and you're the leaders, you probably need to have reasons for why you're making those choices because I see a lot of people in in covens and stuff. They often make choices based on their feelings, not what's in the best interest of the all the time right, but I think I think you're absolutely right there.

Speaker 1 10:58

I mean, if you're going to be making changes like that, you need to have a reason for it. Yeah, I mean there needs to be some logic behind it.

Speaker 2 11:08

Something that people can actually hold on to and go. Okay, this makes sense why we're doing it this way.

Speaker 1 11:14

Absolutely yeah.

Speaker 2 11:16

Versus any other way. I keep on looking at all this stuff and other people and what in the world they say, and I spend a lot of my time going look, every belief system is right, you believe what the world's best for you. But I was starting to wonder over the years is this completely true? And especially when I'm looking at certain other traditions and stuff like that, like Heaven's Gate okay, these, you know, jonestown and stuff like this are all traditions equal? I mean, I mean, throughout this whole entire conversation, are we going to be sitting there going, okay, are the Gardnerians going to win out on what in the world they want versus what in the world us Ogard want to do, because we're a smaller branch of? Are you with me? Kind of like what I'm seeing in the pagan community now?

Speaker 1 12:10

How? So what are you seeing?

Speaker 2 12:12

Well, I mean like, I'm sorry. The bigger well-known ones are, all the more lack of a better word more liberal, less traditional versus us.

Speaker 1 12:25

Well, you know, I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that more and more of the younger generations are coming in and they're taking leadership roles and they're bringing their ideals in, you know, and their ways of thinking, and that's, and that's fine. But I think, for I kind of, I kind of liken it to the church that I grew up in, when the younger generation started taking over the leadership roles. Right, they started making changes and the changes were fun, especially for them, right, right, but it started isolating the older generations.

Speaker 2 13:14

Exactly.

Speaker 1 13:15

Because the older generations they weren't really accustomed to the new way of doing things and they didn't really want to make that change. It made them uncomfortable and things like that. And I kind of see the same thing happening now with what you were talking about.

Speaker 2 13:37

Right.

Speaker 1 13:39

Because it is a lot of the younger folks coming in and stepping up and taking those leadership roles and things are changing.

Speaker 2 13:47

Which drives me up the wall, because in most witchcraft traditions, when we're talking actual covens and stuff like that, your elders work with the high priestess and high priest, who's ever in charge? Who's ever making them? You still have elders you're responsible toward. Well, I am the high priest of our temple and stuff like that, and, yes, I have a certain amount of authority. That authority is very limited.

Speaker 1 14:16

But even then, my point is is that, like the generation after us, so the millennials are coming in behind us. I'm not saying that they're not no, no, no, I'm not saying anything's wrong with it. I'm just saying this is how I see the changes happening. So the millennials are now in the leadership roles, and then Gen Zers are coming up behind them, right? So millennials are stepping into the elder roles, right? Gen Zers are coming up in the leadership roles, and while they're working together, they still have slightly different ideas.

Speaker 2 14:58

Well, I'm not saying that they don't. I'm just saying that it is the responsibles of the elders in the temple to temper those changes to where everybody's still included.

Speaker 1 15:14

Yeah.

Speaker 2 15:15

Are you with me? That's why they're there. They're not there to tell a high priest, no, you shouldn't do this or you shouldn't do that. They're there to go. Well, if you do this, this is also what you're going to be doing. You're going to be isolating this group of the temple, away from everybody else.

Speaker 1 15:31

Well, but also you got to look at it this way Some of those covens that are making those changes I think a lot of the people inside of the coven are okay with the changes. If they're not, why would they stay?

Speaker 2 15:48

I can sit there and argue how well do kids raising other kids work?

Speaker 1 15:53

out. A lot of our generation were kids, when they had kids, so well, but there's a lot of us.

Speaker 2 16:00

We grew up, we were raised by our parents, we were around our parents. I remember sitting there and listening to my mom having conversations with the neighbor down the road about stuff I didn't care nothing about because I was still a kid Politics and all that other stuff. I sort of learned how to behave because I was exposed to it. But I see kids now growing up where the parents start to have a grown-up conversation with another adult and they'll look at the kids okay, you need to go outside and play and they never get that experience of that. They're only getting the experience of dealing with their own age. It seems to be causing a problem Because, again, millennials are only used to dealing with millennials, Generation X is only used to Generation X. Well, I shouldn't say that.

Speaker 1 16:49

But you're with me, yeah.

Speaker 2 16:52

It seems like society, each generation, is becoming more isolated in and of itself.

Speaker 1 16:58

I was just going to say that.

Speaker 2 17:00

Our generation. The reason most people, like most of our bosses, liked us is because we knew how to talk to the boomers and we knew how to talk to the millennials, right, because we weren't raised by other, we weren't raised by our. You know what I'm saying. We weren't raised by other kids, we were raised by adults. We were around well, we were the first latchkey kids and stuff like that. So they sort of overdid the adult supervision when they could. I couldn't go down the road without one of the neighbor's moms calling me hey, you know what your son did, right? Which was a completely different experience than what I saw. Like my nieces and nephews, who are millennials, they just sort of stayed among themselves.

Speaker 1 17:48

So then you know how do we fix this. How do we fix this within the pagan community?

Speaker 2 17:55

Well, again, we don't need to be sending kids off. How else are they going to learn? They got to see adults being adults.

Speaker 1 18:05

So are you saying we start allowing them, we start including them?

Speaker 2 18:11

Okay, we start including kids in the conversation from the beginning. If you go back to the early 1900s and talk to kids, back then, most of them kids that are like 13 or 14 talked more like adults. They knew what was going on in the world. They kept reading the newspaper, they kept doing this stuff. They talked about what was going on. These kids were working in bars and stuff like that, listening to the customers.

Speaker 1 18:41

Okay, so are you saying we need to start teaching kids?

Speaker 2 18:45

Yes, again, we've gotten to this habit where we think that adults and kids should be in separate spaces.

Speaker 1 18:54

Okay, so should we also start allowing children into ritual space.

Speaker 2 19:00

I don't know start allowing children into ritual space. I don't know. I still don't have a problem with them on the outside because, again, you still have the there are certain energies. I do not think kids should be exposed to these are more adult energies, which could probably push kids to do behaviors that are not ready for mentally or emotionally.

Speaker 1 19:23

Right.

Speaker 2 19:23

All right. So again, I'm not so sure about that. I'm just saying I think we need to start actually talking to our kids again. I've seen it over the years we don't talk to our kids anymore, we don't interact with them.

Speaker 1 19:37

Okay, so we should, probably we should.

Speaker 2 19:41

so you're saying we should be more like um we should throw the kids xbox out yeah all right, we should start playing board games again and and having conversations, working with the kids. And are you with me?

Speaker 1 19:56

yeah we?

Speaker 2 19:57

we keep on giving them ipads and all this other stuff and shoving them in a corner, and they keep on acting this way.

Speaker 1 20:05

Well, I mean they become adults. It's like Lady Keegan. I mean her kids have all that stuff but she, you know she limits their time with that. So they are allowed to play their games, they're allowed to be on Xbox, the computer, whatever. They're allowed to do all that but she limits their time.

Speaker 2 20:28

I think her oldest one. How old was her oldest before they even bought him a phone? Oh Lord 14?, 12 or 13, I think, and even then they limited who we could contact on the thing too.

Speaker 1 20:44

Yeah, well, I mean he didn't really have too many people that he wanted to contact to begin with. No Family members.

Speaker 2 20:54

Mainly adults. Not other kids. Funny how that is. But again, she's also homeschooling, so her kids are around more adults than they are other kids.

Speaker 1 21:09

Yeah, she's not the typical thing that I was trying to talk about, no, but yeah, but no, she does, and I believe she includes her kids in conversation. Plus she's, you know, she's teaching them a little sprinkle of paganism, here and there, a little, yeah, just a little. Okay, maybe a lot, but you know, but she's teaching.

Speaker 2 21:32

Considering she skipped Greek mythology altogether, just went into Celtic mythology, right? All right, because I do, I do and I'm going to. I'm going to go ahead and brag. I do know her oldest did a paper for her comparing Luke Skywalker to Lou Long's gifties.

Speaker 1 21:52

Lou.

Speaker 2 21:52

Long's gifties yeah. I love it. Love it, the silver arm, the whole nine yards, and how they were alike.

Speaker 1 22:02

I love it.

Speaker 2 22:05

Well you know, I hate to be this way after, I think I read that thing and he sort of makes a good argument that Luke Skywalker might have been based the character might have been based on Lulov Giffey's.

Speaker 1 22:18

He very well could have been. I mean, there are some similarities, for sure. So now that we've been all over the place, I know right, we just we've been around the world today.

Speaker 2 22:31

I mean from a simple question of you know well, again, the idea is what do all these religions do if the conspiracies are real? I mean, what do we do if the whole Ill are real? What do we do if the whole Illuminati thing is real? Are you with me?

Speaker 1 22:48

What do we say If that shit's real? I will end on it. Thank you, I will end on it. I want to be part of it. You know we're being greedy. Right.

Speaker 2 23:01

Because I do? I find it funny because I watch certain political shows and blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 2 23:06

Right, that's my private life, right, but I hear some of this stuff about, oh yeah, these whole witch, blah, blah, blah and how they're trying to take over the world. But then, on the other hand, you also hear them and we're dumb little tree-hugging pagans that don't know our ass from a hole in the ground. Which are we? Are we some dastardly group of people? Are we some tree-hugging fruits out in the? Make up your mind, we can't be both.

Speaker 1 23:36

Well, apparently we are.

Speaker 2 23:38

But I know the argument. Oh, no, no, no, the Illuminati is something different from y'all. They know the rest and y'all just they're just tricking you. I've heard it all before and I'm like are you sure, are we really as powerful as you think we are, or could it just be something else that you think it is All right? Are you just wanting to see what you want to see? Because, I'm sorry, I've ran a company for how long and trying to get 10 people to walk in the same direction. Right being in management, getting five people to do one project correctly is difficult.

Speaker 1 24:17

Yeah, it can be yeah.

Speaker 2 24:19

And then when you think about stuff like that, how the hell do they get away with some of these conspiracies? Makes no sense.

Speaker 1 24:26

Beats me Well, again, I don't think we've answered any questions. I don't either.

Speaker 2 24:33

Hopefully it's food for thought, the same argument comes up what happens when Elon Musk does what he says and we can live on Mars?

Speaker 1 24:42

Right.

Speaker 2 24:44

How do all these religions change? How do you calculate Christmas for Mars I mean, or Easter, I don't know, know they'll have to come up with a new calendar because easter I mean especially like easter, all right, because easter is the first sunday after the first full moon, after the equinox yep that date always changes all right, so I mean changes, All right. So I mean, there's my question what do we do? What do we do with these things like this?

Speaker 1 25:20

All of them, I think. I think something like that would just have to go to a more astrological type calendar or smarter people than us. Well, yeah, probably.

Speaker 2 25:34

So again questions, no real answers.

Speaker 1 25:39

Food for thought, though.

Speaker 2 25:40

Food for thought. Let's ask the audience what do y'all think, what would y'all do? What would you change? Come on, let us know, matter of fact, why don't you add it if you want to Give us a review wherever you're listening to this podcast right now? Good or bad, just review us anyway.

Speaker 1 26:00

Right, tell us how crazy we are. Please tell us how crazy we are.

Speaker 2 26:05

But no, no, that's the real point of this. What happens when the conspiracies are real? Right what do we do when the when the Tuatha Dei turn out to be aliens and actually do land and their city reappears in three days out of the fog? What if they're right? What if we're wrong? And I think that's about it I need coffee.

Speaker 1 26:28

Let's go get some coffee please thanks for listening. Join us next week for another episode. Pagan Coffee Talk is brought to you by Life Temple and Seminary. Please visit us at lifetempelseminaryorg for more information, as well as links to our social media Facebook, discord, twitter, youtube and Reddit.

Speaker 3 26:50

We travel down this trodden path, path the maze of stone and mire. Just hold my hand as we pass by a sea of blazing pyres. And so it is the end of our day. So walk with me till morning breaks. And so it is the end of our days. So walk with me till morning.