Pagan Coffee Talk
We will discuss topics related to the Pagan community. All views are from a traditionalist's point of view. The conversations are unscripted (no preparations have been made ahead of time). A special thanks to Darkest Era for the use of their songs: Intro- The Morrigan, Exit - Poem to the Gael. Check them out at http://darkestera.net/.
Pagan Coffee Talk
Exploring the Intersection of History and Progress
Can the age-old notion of physical wholeness as a requirement for leadership truly stand the test of time? We journey through the captivating story of Lue Llaw Gyffes, whose journey from exclusion due to a lost arm to a redefined sense of leadership challenges us to rethink historic ideals. Historically, leaders and spiritual figures had to meet strict criteria of physical perfection, excluding even those with scars or circumcisions. Yet, as medical advancements and societal shifts reshape our understanding of "wholeness," we question the relevance of these outdated standards today. Together, we explore how adaptability has become vital in redefining who can stand as a leader in our modern world.
Balancing tradition and societal progress presents a thrilling challenge, and we tackle the nuances of preserving historical practices amid ever-changing beliefs. We emphasize the significance of historical context in educating future generations. The evolution of religious and societal norms happens gradually, and understanding this slow progression is crucial for informed discussions about our evolving world. As we wrap up with a light-hearted chat over coffee, we invite you to continue walking with us through the enlightening and challenging landscapes of history, tradition, and modernity.
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Speaker 2:Yay, yay, coffee Empty.
Speaker 1:Right Bartender. Oh no, I'm sorry, Barista.
Speaker 2:What would you like to know about today?
Speaker 1:So there's something that's been cropping up in conversations around One must be whole to stand before the gods.
Speaker 2:This all starts because of the story of Lulaw Giffey's All right, okay, lulaw Giffey wound up losing an arm Right. Okay, lulof Giffey wound up losing an arm Right. Considering back in the day, chieftains and priestesses were considered to be representations of the gods and that anyone who was not whole and what do we mean by that? You couldn't be missing any limbs, body parts whatsoever.
Speaker 1:Right limbs, body parts whatsoever.
Speaker 2:Right, scars on the skins and stuff like that were kept at a minimum, as much as possible, all right. So again, if you lost a finger, no, you could not be a chieftain because you could not represent the gods.
Speaker 2:So yes that does mean that guys who were circumcised could not be to that extent All right. So anything removed Now, over the years we've stopped this. All right Because, again, it doesn't make any sense to us nowadays, because we don't see the limitations like that Right, like they did back in the day of how this was going to be a bad thing because you didn't have an eye and your death perception was messed up. Now, right, but it used to be the case that all high priest and priestesses were considered to have to be whole to stand before the gods.
Speaker 1:Okay, so how? How did we get away from that? What changed?
Speaker 2:The idiocy of it started to come up in the old days. It was easy. But are you really whole because you had your tonsils removed? Are you really whole because you had your appendix removed, or are you? Are you with what I'm saying here? There are things that we can remove from our bodies and have surgeries that are part of us, I mean technically. I know a lot of people don't like it, but cancer is technically a part of us. If we don't cut it out, it will kill us, right? Does that make us less whole, before the gods?
Speaker 1:Hmm.
Speaker 2:Are you starting to see where in the world the problem starts to amount?
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, because With this thought, yeah, because even if I mean, if you've got like the slightest thing wrong with you that you've had to have fixed, you're no longer whole Right. So then who? Then we don't have any leaders. Well again, none of us can be priests and priestesses.
Speaker 2:Well, again, if we go back to these, the time in which this started, back in these old days, it was a little bit different. I'm sorry. When you were born with a birth defect, back in these days, the chances of your survival was low to nothing. Right, all right, there were not many kids that were born blind that probably survived to adulthood. No, back in the day, all right, there were not many kids that were born blind that probably survived to adulthood.
Speaker 1:No, back in the day.
Speaker 2:All right, Because again, you can't see the tiger when it's coming across. You don't know where to run or run to. So a problem again. If you're deaf, you have the same problem, but over the time and over the years we found ways around these problems to where blind people can function, People without arms. We actually do like we did with Lula Giffey. He was given a silver arm to replace his old one.
Speaker 1:Right, so that he could once again be a representative.
Speaker 2:Actually, he still wasn't allowed to, even with the silver arm, be a representative. Actually, he still wasn't allowed to even with the silver arm. The legend goes it wasn't until a healer named Deocat came along and regrew his arm. He was allowed to become chieftain again. That's right. Yeah, and it's still debated if that part of the story is part of it or not, Right?
Speaker 2:I'm not going to go down that road, all right, I don't feel like arguing that. Does that mean because we wear glasses or we no longer whole if you're losing a tooth right? That's where the that's where in the world our elders started to see a problem with the concept of you have to be whole to be in front of the gods.
Speaker 1:Well, like I said, I mean, how extreme do you go with that before nobody's worthy? Exactly, I mean literally nobody.
Speaker 2:Well, you look at American society, all right, and not trying to be a rough dick here, but on average, I think, what is it? 50% of the male population is circumcised. The other 50% ain't Probably something like that. Yeah, and at the end of the day, where does that actually matter when it comes to performing ritual, it shouldn't you know? I mean well, even in like for my example, for me personally, I've had a hip replacement, mm, hmm, am I still whole? I still have a hip? Yeah, I mean, it's sort of the whole Lulagifi thing. It's not my hip, it is a artificial hip.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:I'm not. I mean according to tradition, according to the older tradition, but it's still in place.
Speaker 1:You can still walk.
Speaker 2:I can still walk I'm not saying I do it well Even before the hip was replaced. Right right but I'm back to the argument you're giving. At what point does it become too extreme? At what point are we turning people away who would be good leaders, who can do this, just because of this? I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm so glad we stopped it all.
Speaker 1:Right, it's not something we do anymore, but it is something that traditions used to do in the past well, I was gonna say have you, have you noticed at any point that some people are starting to do this again?
Speaker 2:no, not really not as much so we're still, we're still staying away from that idea right, right, I'm not seeing it come back, I'm just saying it used to be part of the tradition. It used to be part of certain traditions, while over the generations we've gotten away from it, but it used to be a part of it. There's something worth talking about. There was the thought that to basically what we're talking about is to incarnate deity, one must be whole, right, all right, and because the idea went sort of like this line is the gods have all their body parts, they expect them to be there.
Speaker 2:When they're not, they tend to want to use them Right right it's also the same concept of why in the world we have to have likens or guardians. When we incarnate, sort of follow us around because we're trying to explain to people gods, don't feel, fear fire. They'll walk through a fire pit in a heartbeat, right? Unfortunately, my little body won't all. Right, not necessarily.
Speaker 1:Well, I was gonna say, you might survive walking through the fire. But what if they decide to stop in the middle of it exactly?
Speaker 2:that could be an issue. That could be an issue, all right. Well, the same thought goes along with them that they'll try to use an arm that's not there, thinking that it is and mess something up, but I don't see. Where in the arm that's not there, thinking that it is and mess something up, but I don't see where in the world that's a problem.
Speaker 1:I mean, I don't either, I really don't.
Speaker 2:I think the gods are a little bit more aware. When they For the lack of a better word Possess someone, they realize what in the world they're possessing Before they get there.
Speaker 1:That's my thing. Are you not giving them enough credit to know what they're getting into before they get into it?
Speaker 2:I mean, come on, I mean technically, if you want to look into this. We do the same thing with cars. When you walk up to a car and somebody goes here, drive this Honda Civic, it's not like you can drive it like it's a damn sports car. No, no, I mean, you're with me. Yeah, I mean, you know you don't drive a Fiesta like you do. You know, a Maserati. It don't happen, no. So why would this be any different? When I incarnate, I believe there's a certain part of me that really believes that the gods are like yeah, this body's not quite as young as it used to be we gotta be a little gentle with it this one's got some limitations.
Speaker 1:It's got a limited warranty on it. It's only been dripping on every full moon it's like wait a minute. This one's got over a hundred thousand miles on it but again, we we've had traditions like this before.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to think of any other traditions we've had along this line that we used to do that we've sort of gotten away from, besides the um, the coming of ages for our kids traditions and rituals which I those I think we ought to bring back. I I think there's a little bit more cultural significance of bringing that back.
Speaker 1:There are some groups, but they're few and far between that. We've heard of in the past who still do these rites of passage.
Speaker 2:If you will, but it seems most people have gotten away from those, and it's kind of sad Well again, just like we were talking about. You've to be held before the gods. You never hear anybody talking about this nowadays no whatsoever.
Speaker 2:Now, back in the day, when I was still like a neophyte and all that, you would hear this conversation. Should we do this, should we not? But this also came on the legs of the whole entire conversation of do we still do the great right or do we just do symbolism with cakes and wines, with the anthem in the chalice?
Speaker 1:again that's.
Speaker 2:That's a priest and priestess decision but again, it's yet another cultural change that we've seen in paganism from the time of when we started to what they are now I don't see too many people doing the great right anymore out now.
Speaker 1:Oh no, I'm not saying there ain't people out there that do, but I'm just saying I don't see it as it's not something everybody does well I think, there might only be a handful of groups that still do it well, and I think that comes down to the comfort zone of the individuals involved, how they handle the coven being there or not being there. There's a lot of things that go into that and I think for some people it's just logistically it's easier just to do the symbolic right this also seems to come into effect when we're looking at.
Speaker 2:What we're talking about here is we're looking at like certain traditions right now really hold on to our gender roles priest or priest, and priestesses or priestesses Right. We do not allow anyone who is quote unquote male to incarnate female deities, and we typically don't. We typically discourage females from incarnating gods unless they absolutely have to, right. But I see in certain traditions where in the world that is starting to break down now, really Right, where more and more guys are trying to incarnate female deities.
Speaker 1:I have heard of some some guys doing that Not helpful. I mean some of the, some of the conversations I've seen say that they don't have a problem with it I'm I'm still thinking the long-term effects like radiation right I mean I'm not, why small doses might not hurt you over a long period of time.
Speaker 2:We are not talking about meditation, right? Okay, we're not talking about prayers. We are talking about incarnating itself, right, are you with me? Men incarnating female deity we consider a bad thing because to us, in our tradition, we believe that men gave up that ability to protect the women.
Speaker 1:Hmm.
Speaker 2:No, we gave up that emotional side of us to be a little bit more cold hearted, because there are times in our lives we need to be. We need to be able to turn off those emotions and fight the tiger, even though we're scared to death. Right, we need to. We need to stand there, those emotions, and fight the tiger, even though we're scared to death right, we need to. We need to stand there in front of our families that go. No, I'm going to stand here and protect them until they get away. When you have that female energy running through you, you can't do that anymore well, I don't know.
Speaker 2:I know some mothers who would fight like hell for their kids yeah, but I also see mothers wanting to know their babies are right, that their babies are okay. They can't just stop and let them run away and hope for the best. Men do that because the women are going, because their moms are going with them. I can see that you know, Alright, again, a mom's worried about.
Speaker 2:Okay, yes, I might be able to fight this off now and die in the process, but is my baby going to die after that because I'm not there to take care of them? Right, men, don't do it. But again, this is the same behaviors we need to talk about in craft. Right, should we be doing this? Should we not? I'm not saying one way is right or wrong.
Speaker 3:Are you with me?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Are we giving up certain aspects of our society, and all this just to make people more comfortable, which, in the long run, is going to hurt us?
Speaker 1:That's a good question.
Speaker 2:Is it really worth it? Is it really worth it? And again, we're still bringing up the whole entire thing of which ones of these things do we keep and what don't we keep, and why?
Speaker 1:Right. What kind of changes do we need to make?
Speaker 2:And what do we really need to look at? And why do we believe this? Why do we honestly believe that men should not incarnate female deities?
Speaker 1:Because, again, oh, Well, I was going to say I think it's kind of like men eating soy products, exactly when soy in men produces estrogen which is not good for the male body.
Speaker 2:No, which is not good for the male body. No. And then when you start thinking about, like soy oil, that soil oil everywhere, yes, it does the same thing right.
Speaker 1:So I think, men incarnating the goddess it's kind of like that. It's pushing it just a little bit farther. Yeah, I think that's definitely got something to do with it now. Now that's my opinion. Somebody else might call it bullshit.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm going to ask a dangerous question. Could this be back in the day? What started homosexuality? Oh, oh, Back in ancient times, guys doing this, not realizing what they were doing I mean it's a possibility just asking the question it's hard to.
Speaker 1:It's hard to know for sure, because we weren't there, but wow that's that's a.
Speaker 2:That's a pretty good speculation right there, because here's my thought okay, if we believe in the gods, we believe in the gods along this line, because people believe in donnu and the kelp and and the twafidatanon for so many years before we did. They brought them to life and we just carry on that tradition. Is this not the same thing?
Speaker 1:it could be, you know that I don't really know, but yeah, wow.
Speaker 2:Over time? Could this really affect, could we actually be affected by stuff that was done back at the dawn of time, that is slowly infected Well, I don't want to say infected, but change the way we fall over the years of ancient rituals done when these people were still experiment and didn't know what we knew. But I don't necessarily want to say it that way, because sometimes I think they had a better connection than we did.
Speaker 1:But wow, yeah that's. I mean, that's something to think about I mean, let's be honest.
Speaker 2:We honestly believe we can affect the world, and we do. Humanity can, over time, affect the world and how it looks and how we perceive it right and we also.
Speaker 1:We also believe that a lot of those happen over time. It's not going to be something that's going to be instantaneous. It happens, it's like a stack effect well like.
Speaker 2:I watched a video one time where it was basically saying for the longest time there was no color blue. Right, blue of the sky was considered a shade of green, right until somebody made a blue paint or something that was completely different. Oh that's blue again. Is this different? Oh, that's blue Again. Is this the same thing that's going on in craft? Are there certain things we have lost over the years Because it becomes irrelevant? That maybe Would give us a better insight. Should we quit teaching these things Just because we don't like the results?
Speaker 2:I mean, if you're going to say just because you believe in transgenderism and you believe that men can do this. Should we?
Speaker 1:I don't know. I don't know, but you know, as far as teachings go, just because they may not work for one person doesn't mean they won't for the next. I think it's important to still have those teachings, even if we don't use them, because somebody somewhere down the road might need them.
Speaker 2:Well, should we put out warnings about certain things like this? I know we do, on the whole incarnation thing, especially when you're getting up to closer to the third and we're talking about accidental we sit down and actually have a serious conversation with you about why we don't do this more than we are here. Right, should traditions keep doing that? Should we keep on reminding people? Hey, at one point we didn't allow people that was missing an eye or an arm or a leg to do this I think so, I think so.
Speaker 2:I think that's an important part of the history behind that aspect of what we do and what do you think we should say to the people who go, no, no, we shouldn't do that. This is so tacky, kind of like along the same lines about the, the monuments for the civil war to remind us not to do it again well, again, it's all part of the history.
Speaker 1:If you ignore, if you ignore the history, you're doomed to repeat it. You're doomed to repeat it. So I think it's important that that still is part of the teaching. Okay, just like with the statues. I don't see anything wrong with the statues being there. I know for a lot of people it's triggering and whatever Me, personally, I don't see a problem with them Because they tell you not to, because they tell the story, or they tell part of the story Of what was going on. Right.
Speaker 2:Hey look, I ain't got a problem with any of that. I like teaching this stuff, right? I mean, I do think it. It I'm with you. I think it does help when people understand this stuff and look at it going. Okay, yes, our religion changes and modifies as we go along and all this other stuff, but it changes. Some of the changes actually happen a whole lot slower than most people think, right they're not gonna happen overnight no, because we're talking about this.
Speaker 2:This was going on in what the early 90s conversation yeah, some of this stuff, yeah, that sounds.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's pretty much.
Speaker 2:It's pretty much quieted down and this is what we wound up with. We don't do some of this stuff anymore, right, because people walked away like okay, that just sounds stupid to me. I don't have a problem with that. I mean, I don't believe anybody with any birth defects is any less than I am no of course not, because I can't Right. So teaching the things is a good thing. What do you think we actually learn from teaching these things and the change? What do you think we're actually learning?
Speaker 1:Well, I think it shows the progression of our train of thought, of our beliefs.
Speaker 2:Again, if you don't know, if you don't know where you came from, I see it as us moving more and more to a religious and spiritual awakening, realizing that our physical form is not just us.
Speaker 1:I think we used to know it back in the day, but I think there was a certain part when science, then the industrial revolution and all this, and we sort of mentally separated ourselves from everything else and I think one where we're seeing is more and more of a bringing back of that that we aren't as separate from everything around us as we like to think we are right, that's what I was getting to, because again it shows that progression of thought and that belief where at one point it was more physical and now we're realizing physical really doesn't have that much to do with it. It's more about the spiritual.
Speaker 2:I see more and more people here lately doing this, going out to the middle of the woods and just building a structure or a house from the local materials, all right. I see more and more people doing this, trying to get back to nature, trying to get back to the basics of everything. Like over the years there's been like a big move here lately on um the whole entire real food, trying to get away from all the processed stuff happening in the country. I see this movement underneath the country and I'd like to think it is the pagan community going. No, this stuff is bad. We're looking at this. We're looking at it from a nature point of view. No, you should not be eating stuff that they use bugs to make more yellow. Right, I'm sorry, I don't want to eat bugs.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean technically, we do anyway when you get shit out of the garden. So you know, just saying.
Speaker 2:Trust me the stuff in my garden does not have bugs on it. I rinse them off. Well, there you go, yeah, but I mean, are you with me? I mean there are certain products that, yes, we get from, things that we wouldn't expect.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:But I've seen a bigger movement to that. So it makes me wonder does the pagan community actually have some stake in?
Speaker 1:this movement.
Speaker 2:I think they're playing a part in it for sure because I sort of want to say I see more homesteaders being more pagan-ish yep than than christianist. Yeah, because I mean, when the whole homesteading first came, it seems like the majority of the people that were doing it were these christian, more devout christians doing it. But now I see more and more paganish people doing this. Now, right, so now is this a? Do you think this is a cultural shift for the country or for the community, or is it just the pagan community now doing this?
Speaker 1:I. I think that's hard to tell. I think there are. I think a lot of the people who are involved in the movement and in this cultural shift are pagan, but I think a lot of.
Speaker 2:I can't say, I don't get caught up. I mean I have to make. I make my mayonnaise to make my salad dressing for my.
Speaker 1:Right, but I just I don't think I think it does. I think it goes beyond the pagan community.
Speaker 2:I don't think it's just just the pagans but it seems to be primarily dominated in the pagan community right now versus right.
Speaker 1:There does seem to be a lot of it yeah, it does.
Speaker 2:I mean, I'm not knocking it and I'm absolutely thrilled about it. I mean, come on, let's do more right. Well, I think that's about it you ready for some coffee?
Speaker 1:yep, thanks for listening. Join us next week for another episode. Pagan coffee talk is brought to you by Life Temple and Seminary. Please visit us at lifetemelseminaryorg for more information, as well as links to our social media Facebook, Discord, Twitter, YouTube and Reddit.
Speaker 3:We travel down this trodden path, the maze of stone and mire. Just hold my hand as we pass by a sea of blazing pyres.
Speaker 2:And so it is the end of our day.
Speaker 3:So walk with me till morning breaks, and so it is the end of our day, so walk with me till morning breaks, morning.
