Pagan Coffee Talk
We will discuss topics related to the Pagan community. All views are from a traditionalist's point of view. The conversations are unscripted (no preparations have been made ahead of time). A special thanks to Darkest Era for the use of their songs: Intro- The Morrigan, Exit - Poem to the Gael. Check them out at http://darkestera.net/.
Pagan Coffee Talk
From Kitchen Tools to Sacred Artifacts
Ever wondered why a spatula or a grocery list might be revered as magical artifacts within pagan circles? Join us as we navigate the whimsical and often hilarious journey of how everyday objects gain sacred status simply by being associated with influential figures. We'll question whether these perceived mystical items are genuine or just opportunities for profit, and explore what truly happens to magical items—are they destroyed, preserved, or commodified for the masses?
We fondly remember Lord Merlin from the Ravenwood tradition, reflecting on how his possessions were shared with respect and love. As we dissect the intersection of commerce and spirituality, we'll challenge the ethics of selling magical items on platforms like eBay and Etsy. A heartfelt story about a cherished batch of incense brings home the personal and communal significance of spiritual artifacts. Join us for an episode filled with humor, introspection, and a touch of magic, as we explore the legacy of pagan artifacts in our modern world.
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Welcome to Pagan Coffee Talk. If you enjoy our content, please consider donating and following our socials. Now here are your hosts, lady abba and lord knight all right, the holy spatula.
Speaker 3:Oh my gosh, this is one of my favorite. Can we tell the story?
Speaker 2:all right, I'm gonna tell the story.
Speaker 3:Okay, okay, okay so when I was a neophyte I don't even think I was the first, yet actually I don't.
Speaker 3:I think you were neophyte we were having a discussion right in one of my classes about magical tools and about, you know, sacred objects and all of these things, and we were also talking about how many, many items things that are used by pagans become misconstrued as a magical or a sacred object, and the example that you gave in class was the holy grocery list. Yes, and literally this was that you might run across a elder's book literally a book, a book of magic, a book of paganism, whatever it might be, a book on craft, and inside it you might find a list Right and people will become obsessed. I found this. I found this. This is look look at this.
Speaker 4:This is from one of our elders.
Speaker 3:This is from one of our elders. This must be very, very important. What is this? Uh, that's a grocery list, that's it. He used it as a bookmark, yeah, and, but but initially, right, everybody thinks it must be a recipe or a spell or something, something. And so I am a bit. I love ebay, okay, I love ebay, I shop for a lot of things on ebay. And I sent you a link and I went look what I found, and it became dubbed henceforth the holy, because someone was literally selling what they were calling a magical item, a tool of witchcraft, from an elder. I mean, they had this person's name, they had a whole history.
Speaker 4:This was a big old story, oh yeah.
Speaker 3:It was intense. It was a literal cooking spatula. It was an old metal spatula with a wooden handle. That was it. That was it. There was nothing special about it. There was nothing. It was just someone's spatula. We're appalled that someone is trying to sell and make money off of this item just because an elder, third degree right or witch, queen or whatever touched it, used it. What made this magical?
Speaker 4:This is the same thing as priests blessing their golf clubs. Yeah, for a better shot there.
Speaker 3:I mean, maybe she this was just her favorite spatula. It made no sense and and so and this is a. We have seen this time and time again now charms right the the belief that just because one of us held it, used it, owned it, possessed it, it must be special, okay. So, a is there any truth to that? B is this just a bunch of greedy people trying to make money or take advantage of people?
Speaker 4:Well, as far as charms go, I can see where, if someone has worn the same necklace or ring their whole entire lives, this becomes a special item. But this is more of a special item that represents the person, not the.
Speaker 3:Not a spiritual application.
Speaker 4:Yeah, not the not a spiritual application. Yeah, I mean this is not like a magical item from a game. Where in the world you're going to get stat boost for buying a rich?
Speaker 3:yeah, I mean let's all right. So let's, let's back up a second here and let's talk about what really happens to our true magical items yeah, what really?
Speaker 4:because I'm sorry, I don't think you'll ever find those items on ebay you might be surprised, but but here's the but, here's the reality.
Speaker 3:Most of us have right atham, athame, whatever you want to call it, ceremonial knife. We have our cords. We have some of us have our own chalice. We have our own patent, which is our offering bowl dish. We may have um altar other altar tools, statues, representations, candles. Some of us have pentagrams that we carry as a disc or an object for use in circle. Right we have a thermal or an incense holder right some sort.
Speaker 3:So okay, most of these are destroyed yes they are either destroyed and burned, they are buried with us, or in case of books and stuff like that are kept in archives they become property of the temple, the temple at large, and so many of our quote-unquote charms are actual books, especially books never leave. Books become a part of the archive and or are distributed amongst trusted members of the group, but other things wands, for instance, staves, stains, I mean very little of that is kept. Now there may be an exception made whereby it might be gifted to a practitioner who was close to that person and someone who knew them well, but most of it is yeah.
Speaker 4:Because some of these items that we're talking about, a solitary is not going to have. I don't see many solitaries going around using swords.
Speaker 3:No.
Speaker 4:They might, but not they might but.
Speaker 3:If a solitary has a sword, in all likelihood it's just because they like the sword. It's not because they were using it ceremonially, right. But I don't think we're talking about solitaries here. We're talking about people who have a certain amount of notoriety inside of craft, or at least a lineage, a heritage inside of craft, and that's why their belongings become coveted. But therein lies the problem. That word coveted, yeah, I don't. Why would you want someone else's spiritual?
Speaker 4:This is rough, rough like there are well, I mean some of the stuff I have a problem with I. I cannot see anybody sitting there. I can't see me going around going. Oh yeah, that was lord man's robe here, let me wear it yeah, I could see so.
Speaker 3:Okay. So there's so many aspects to this, right? So, ok, ritual clothing. Ritual clothing to me is interesting because, yes, on one hand you go, oh, I don't know if any of us would want to wear it, being very practical and saying, well, maybe we have someone who is a similar size and build and they can't afford or don't have their own robe, so we will gift it to them after a good cleansing. Yeah, but that's the point we're cleansing it first.
Speaker 3:You're getting a brand new robe, whether you know it or not. Certain things we are going to be practical about. Certain things we are going to be practical about right, but other things I mean.
Speaker 3:Okay, here's a case in point whenever one of us dies, there is inevitably a bunch of boxes and jars yes if said boxes and jars are sealed, usually with wax, and made difficult to get into and I have had this happen and had this conversation with many, many other members of craft what is it? Should we open it? Nope, it's getting destroyed. Why we don't know what's in it. We don't want to know, we don't need to know. That's the whole point. If painstaking measures were made to seal it, leave it alone.
Speaker 4:For crying out loud. I remember moving and you having to label boxes. Items may be enchanted.
Speaker 3:Yes. Handle with caution yeah, handle with care. Items may be enchanted. Yeah, I mean, that is yeah. Books of shadows that is, yeah, um, books of shadows. People's personal books either become the property of the church itself, and usually the residing priest and priestess take what is necessary from it right and the rest is again destroyed or it's kept, kept, yeah, in archive for posterity. But that's it. Nobody's being handed that book and, in many cases, good luck reading it. They don't even make sense. They're gobbledygook, except for the person who wrote it, right.
Speaker 4:Because I mean I'm sure you look through mine you got half a recipe on one and then a half a recipe on another page for chicken salad.
Speaker 3:I know one person who does her book completely in cipher. Good luck. Have fun with that, yeah, yeah, it's like we're not going to. This is not the Zodiac killer here. We're not going to sit here and try to decode None. I mean, come on.
Speaker 4:I know many. I know many of traditionalists who still write their books in Theban.
Speaker 3:Mm-hmm. Yes, but at the end of the day, one of the things we acknowledge is that, again, the Holy Grail is not in those pages. Mm-mm, holy grail is not in those pages. We could spend 25 or minutes an hour decoding a page in theban just to go oh it's the witch's read exactly the charge of the goddess it's common knowledge Now crystals, potions, herbs, incenses, brews, things that that person may have made or used regularly, yeah, they get gifted.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they get gifted to other people that again, those that they knew. Other people, that again, those that they knew usually. I remember, when lord merlin passed away from the ravenwood tradition, they, they did something really cool. I give them a lot of credit the way ravenwood handled this. So there was a large, massive event when he passed away and they set up a space on the property because this was a, this was a his um requiem was a weekend event. It was a big to do. Lots of people came from all over. So they set up a space where they basically said if you walk up the hill and you go into the main building, there is a room where we have a bunch of lord merlin's possessions, items that were, in whatever way, connected to his practice. These you are welcome to take what you like, feel free. And it was. It was very nice, it was beautiful, it wasn't. It was a little awkward in the sense that some of us who didn't know him personally, right where we were.
Speaker 3:There was hesitation, obviously so many, like I remember, and it was funny because Lord Merlin was gay. I remember looking at a lot of these items and things and going this isn't, these aren't mine to take. Right, there's something I didn't have that needed connection to him in life. But I do remember there was a sort of a sash or like a ribbon. It was the rainbow flag and I went that one Because it was just a ribbon. There was nothing tremendously special about it. He may have at some point maybe worn it around his neck during a ritual of some sort, maybe for a pride-based event, maybe for something in june, I don't know. But that I was like, yes, this is something I would like to have to remember him by, and I took it and that's it, and it it sits now with my magical fair, you know, and it's got a little. I just took a little Sharpie and wrote Merlin.
Speaker 4:But I'm going to say this I'm going to try not to be nice but, at no point did anyone ever go onto eBay and post this going. Hey, Lord Merlin passed away here. Yeah, Would you like his loofah?
Speaker 3:No, it was. It was freely given away. Anyone could take whatever they like. Now I mean again, these were very selected items. Why? Because someone like Lord Merlin, who was a holy moly. He was a third degree for 40 some odd years.
Speaker 3:I think, he had a massive amount of things collected and he had a wardrobe. His tradition is a little showy right, and they like a little bit of flair for drama inside of their rituals. He had a lot of different types of robes and garments and that was the main thing that was being offered up because he might have worn some of them once right or maybe only once every so often. Easy peasy, but no one was sitting there holding an auction, right going. You know, here is the holy spatula, you know do I have ten dollars, ten dollars fifteen dollars.
Speaker 4:Come on no with that said now let's flip the script here. How many witches do you know that is going to actually cast that spell on the spatula or on the front?
Speaker 3:but that's the thing. I think a lot of these people that are doing this that are out there, you know, with these, this is an enchanted item, a magical item, a blessed item. There is a problem with this because, no, none of that has actually taken place. This is just an item that has been used by. So at that point, are we basically deifying that person? To some extent, I think we are. Is this, like you know, the buddha phenomenon, the dalai lama, right, it's been blessed by or it's been used by. So we're basically saying that the mere touch of this person bless this item and it has now made it powerful well, or I'm, I'm, or I'm actually.
Speaker 4:I'm actually going a little bit farther than that, when you think about our actual blessing ritual. Can you see me taking my freaking frying pan out there to do the actual blessing Good?
Speaker 3:gravy. Just to get my frying pan to do better, good gravy.
Speaker 4:I don't, yeah, no, no. Do you see what I'm saying? This?
Speaker 3:is not happening. I do. I do Because typically, when we bless something, we are doing it in ritual space for ritual, for ritual. Yes, there are. There are two objects sitting on your desk right now. I'm gonna, I'm gonna give away the least that I can here, right, because they came out of last night's ritual.
Speaker 3:They were blessed yes but it was for a specific working. If anyone were to find those 20 years from now and you and I are long gone, no one is going to say, oh, these are blessed. How would they know that is? And never would anyone see that and think, oh, those are special, they're so mundane, it's hilarious.
Speaker 4:Now there is a fear that man Lord man brought up about this behavior. All right, and the fear is is that, yes, someone is going to get a hold of a book of shadows or something. We have half written something down and somebody is going to wind up with a holy chicken salad yes, it happens, it's been happening.
Speaker 3:So all of the tradition heads right, be it gardner, be it crowley, be it the frosts right, this has happened. Yes, there has been partial writings or something that was not crowley especially good grief. You know something? And and still people are obsessing over it, obsessed with it, trying to decode it, trying to understand it.
Speaker 4:It might be absolutely nothing because I don't know how many times I have sat down and started to write something to my book of shadows, to get about halfway through and go.
Speaker 3:This isn't going exactly where I thought it was yeah, or you got busy doing something else and you forgot to go back to it well, I mean, it's just like the podcast.
Speaker 4:so conversations, we'll, we'll be sitting here doing, we'll be trying, we'll look at each other going. This ain't working.
Speaker 3:It's like anything, it happens and it's a very but it's a strange to me. It's a strange phenomenon that we go acknowledge and accept that the children of the craft are all children of the craft. What makes one of us, or a select number of us, more powerful?
Speaker 4:special? I don't.
Speaker 3:It's very weird because, again, mason, where I am, I don't. It's very weird.
Speaker 4:Because, again, mason, where I am, I don't feel myself as special as and I don't mean this mean, but as sometimes I get out in public when I'm in the pagan community, do you see what I'm saying?
Speaker 3:Sure, but I look at it this way too. Something of yours, it's important to me because it's a connection that I can make back to you. But I know you, yeah, we have a relationship. I cannot imagine looking at someone and saying this is lord knight's q-tip god, I hope not right I mean, I'm coming up with the most ridiculous thing, but you are right but then how?
Speaker 3:okay, so if this person has no connection, no knowledge of you or the bare minimum, all right, number one, how are they going to tap into that? Number two what are they going to do with it? What can you possibly? So back to the holy spatula. Even if you could, what are you going to achieve with it? A better omelet flip? It's a spatula. I can. I cannot conceive, and I am a kitchen witch and I can't think of a single thing that I would do with a spatula. Actually, I can when my dog is being a poo in the kitchen, and I mean this when, when one of the dogs is up my ass while I'm trying to cook, the spatula is usually what I shoo them with.
Speaker 3:You, you know and I kind of wave it around until they move out of the room kind of like grandma with the wooden spoon yes and but, and that's what was funny. That was going to be my next point. I would rather have a wooden spoon than a spatula spatula any day of the week.
Speaker 3:That spoon has seen some shit. That spoon has a story. That spoon it's a and it's a very and I don't know. Part of it's because it's wood, part of it is because it's a porous material right. Part of it is because it has a more intentioned use long term than just something that flips something and plus it also used to be alive at some point that's true too.
Speaker 3:Yes, I mean so I don't get and we have seen this, we've seen this time and time again where it's almost like you can do it right now. Go to ebay now. Some of the auction sites I think ebay was one of them at some point they tried to put a curb to. They tried to stop some of this. They tried to get it off of the selling of charms and the selling of yeah, magical objects.
Speaker 4:They tried to do this on eBay, but then they realized the bulk of their sales is craft people.
Speaker 3:No, I don't think that's necessarily true. There's a lot that goes on on eBay that's outside of craft for sure. Or was that etsy, I'm thinking oh, it might be etsy, but etsy, etsy did it too, they put a they put a like you can't sell and then they reversed it yeah, like there's a there's because there are. There are people on etsy that will literally sell a intention. Yes, pay me ten dollars and I'll light this candle for you.
Speaker 4:Yes, and that to me, is going along the same what this.
Speaker 3:It's wild. It's wild, and so I'm very hesitant on a lot of these. I do think a lot of it's greedy yeah. I think it is taking advantage of people who are potentially at their lowest or at a vulnerable place yes.
Speaker 3:But to me, no one who is a member of craft, a person connected with a group, initiate or not, would never do this, never. They would give it to you, yes, before they sold it, yes, and it would be that simple. Well, oh, what is that? Oh well, that was some of lordman's. You know, that was some of his kitchen. Right? Can I have one?
Speaker 4:sure, pick what you want one less thing I got to do something with yeah, but they're not going to sell it.
Speaker 3:That's not going to be. No, absolutely not. And if they do take money for it, it's a donation that goes back to the church or it's going to be a yard sale or something where it's nothing really substantial.
Speaker 4:Exactly.
Speaker 3:Exactly. But I mean, I have seen it's unbelievable whole lots of people's mundane lives being thrown up there like it is somehow magical in nature. And then what are people trying to do? Extract it. This is where I also go. Hollywood has done us a disservice. Yeah, you know, I mean we're not it's we're not collectors items not really.
Speaker 3:No, we're not. We're also traditionalists, especially, there is a. There is a rule I don't know if we've talked about the. Talked about this on the podcast before Upon our death, the temple comes in and takes everything. Yes, we seize it.
Speaker 4:I mean, that's the and that's part of why.
Speaker 3:Why we're getting ahead of two things happening. One, the family accidentally giving something away that they shouldn't. That they shouldn't or selling.
Speaker 4:it shouldn't or selling it, and but the other is making certain that it doesn't become abused or or misappropriated. Yeah, I mean because, as far as I know, we don't have any of these things like, like and not knocking catholics, but like. We don't have the saint finger what do you? Mean, well, we don't have these. I've never seen these artifacts. We don't have what saint christopher's finger or the shroud of tauren or we don't have. I've never seen these things that's what's ironic, right?
Speaker 3:yeah, your relics we don't have. We don't have relics. No, now that's really interesting because our relics, if we want to get technical right, they're in museums. Yes, there are archaeological finds and they're in museums somewhere. Every once in a while, a story comes out of europe it's always the uk. It gets me so mad, right, there's always viking horde of you know found in your, and I'm like damn it, I just want one coin, one coin?
Speaker 3:I don't even want one coin, I just want to find it, look at it and drool, yeah, yeah exactly, and it's just those are cool, that those would be relics, but yes, they end up going to museums. We don't, you're right, we have nothing like that now I am sure. I'm sure thelemites they do. Yeah, there are possessions of crowleys that I could just about guarantee that somebody has somewhere.
Speaker 3:They have been carefully archived and capped and, yes, the thelamites have relics um the gardenarians from gardener and somebody's got a relic yes, absolutely somewhere, but it's not being sold, it's not being auctioned, it is being carefully kept, preserved and ultimately, it becomes part of the religious heritage whereby, I'm certain, any practitioner. May I see it? Yes, can you touch it? No, can you look at it?
Speaker 3:Sure, yeah, there are museums of witchcraft, for instance. I mean, we know that they exist in a few places throughout the world. Things like that do exist there, yes, but good grief, I mean, when I go, yeah, no, I don't want to find out that some you know tea that I was brewing to help with a period cramp is now suddenly being sold as some as some cure, you know, for some ridiculous thing.
Speaker 3:No, stop it, stop it, stop it now. That being said, within a tradition, again, yes, there are things we have, we still have. This is very funny. Well, it's cute. More than anything, we still have what I consider to be whether it is or is not, I don't know the last batch of incense Lord Min made.
Speaker 4:Oh God yes.
Speaker 3:Lord Min has been gone a while. Okay, he made his own incense and we have his sauer blend that he made for many, many, many sounds ago.
Speaker 4:Um, I, think it's been over 10 years it's been longer than that.
Speaker 3:It's been longer than that. It's been closer to 15. Oh crap, he made such an abundance of this right he brought it to us. He made such an abundance of this right he brought it to us for that night. I mean it was almost laughable. Right, it was one ritual. He brought us like a pound of incense in powdered form. I mean it's incredible. So we have it and we use it.
Speaker 4:We continue to use it.
Speaker 3:We continue to use it and, interestingly enough, I have given some of it away. I have. Every now and then I will meet an elder who's like oh yes, I knew, lord Mint, would you like?
Speaker 2:some of his incense.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but there's no, it's just incense.
Speaker 4:It's nothing, no, no Matter of fact, I think we even have the recipe, probably.
Speaker 3:Probably, but it's just nice that it's a connection to him. So please don't, just just don't. We don't want to be seen that way. Um, if anything, think of it like your your grandmother's right spatula, if you're lucky enough to have it. Your grandmother's wedding dress, whatever, your grandmother's right spatula, if you're lucky enough to have it your grandmother's wedding dress. Whatever?
Speaker 4:Your grandmother's wedding ring. These are things that families hold on to.
Speaker 3:But honestly, though, some people I mean look, my family can cook. If I could have my grandmother's spatula, I'd be quite happy with that.
Speaker 4:But I understand that that's your connection to your grandmother.
Speaker 3:But that's what I'm saying, that's how we want to be viewed. I don't. But I'm not going to see it as a spiritual item or something sacred or hell. I wouldn't even cook with it anymore, I would just let it hang out in the kitchen I can't say nothing.
Speaker 4:I have measuring spoons over there that was that I never use there you go yep, so yep.
Speaker 3:That's the story of the holy spatula. Let's have some holy coffee, shall we Okay, Thanks for listening.
Speaker 1:Join us next week for another episode. Pagan Coffee Talk is brought to you by Life Temple and Seminary. Please visit us at lifetempelseminaryorg for more information, as well as links to our social media Facebook, Discord, Twitter, YouTube and Reddit.
Speaker 2:We travel down this trodden path, the maze of stone and mire. Just hold my hand as we pass by a sea of blazing pyres. And so it is the end of our days. So walk with me till morning breaks, and so it is the end of our day. So walk with me till morning breaks.
