Pagan Coffee Talk
We will discuss topics related to the Pagan community. All views are from a traditionalist's point of view. The conversations are unscripted (no preparations have been made ahead of time). A special thanks to Darkest Era for the use of their songs: Intro- The Morrigan, Exit - Poem to the Gael. Check them out at http://darkestera.net/.
Pagan Coffee Talk
Challenging Traditions and Embracing Identity
Is gender a learned performance, or is it woven into the fabric of our instincts? We tackle this intriguing question by dissecting gender as both a societal construct and an instinctual trait. Examine with us the evolving landscape of gender roles, where traditional norms are challenged by modern perceptions and the growing acceptance of gender as a spectrum. We'll explore how societal norms intersect with personal instincts, probing into behaviors like women wearing makeup and men showing protective tendencies, and discuss how these lines are blurred in today's world. This exploration is not just theoretical; it's about understanding how individuals can distinguish between ingrained behaviors and those shaped by society. Grab a cup of your favorite blend and let us know your thoughts via email (lifetemple@lifetempleseminary.org) or on Discord.
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Welcome to Pagan Coffee Talk. If you enjoy our content, please consider donating and following our socials. Now here are your hosts, lady Abba and Lord Knight.
Speaker 2:Okay, Lord Knight.
Speaker 3:Alright.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna ruffle the feathers of many people, yeah. So I am posing a question and I'm gonna say something really important. I am not wanting this topic not that I think we would, anyway, but just to be clear for everyone to be a discussion about transgendered individuals, transgender rights, equality, none of that, Right, okay, not what? Not what this is about. I am posing a simple question that's not so simple is gender really a construct?
Speaker 2:and if I was to tell you my opinion on this was yes and no, and that's what I want to explore, because there we are in an in a fascinating time. Right, because, on one hand, gender is viewed as a construct, it's viewed as a spectrum. Right, on the other hand, and yes of, but we're also in a time where men, again as a gender, are the target of so much hate right and men are being thrown under the bus at every corner for this believed idea of a of a repressive patriarchy right and then somehow coexisting at the same time?
Speaker 2:is this idea that the internet is now obsessed with called wives or traditional wives? Yeah, but in the modern context this is a female who wants to stay at home, who wants to cook and clean and maintain a household, but may or may not want children in the equation well, I think the problem it comes up up is that there's confusion on this, because there are certain behaviors that are constructs that certain genders do that other genders don't which you could easily flip.
Speaker 3:Ie women wearing makeup All right Now, while it's not traditional for men to do this, but it's not like we haven't.
Speaker 2:Correct. It's not traditional for men to do this, but it's not like we haven't Correct.
Speaker 3:It's not traditional in modern society.
Speaker 2:Well, it's becoming again to some extent. But yeah, exactly, it's never been unheard of, I mean.
Speaker 3:But no, I think what happens is, once you sit there and you go okay, this is woman behavior, which you know growing up.
Speaker 2:that's what women did, well, that's the thing, it's the what is taught and what is natural. Right, that's what's fascinating, we have to agree, right? So much of what we know and understand is taught. Right, it's learned, right. Do little girls wear frilly dresses because they really want to, or is it because it's what's expected of them, or what they're taught to wear? I don't know. This is where it's fascinating, and I mean if, given a choice, though, children will gravitate to whatever appeals to them. Yeah, and that's fine. But where I get lost in the shuffle is when people start saying things like there are. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of genders.
Speaker 3:There are no, there are hundreds and thousands of personalities correct.
Speaker 2:So I don't understand how gender, because you know even the idea of non-binary right as we know it now, it's either masculine, feminine or kind of a mix of both right. So I only really see it as a handful of choices. I don't see it as like this infinite number. That's what gets me Well.
Speaker 3:I think the problem is most people need to look at it from their from a different point of view. Okay, this person behaving. I remember growing up and when I was younger I used to work in a mill. Okay, All right, Back when.
Speaker 2:I was 18, when I was younger.
Speaker 3:I used to work in a mill. Okay, all right, back when I was 18. There were certain behaviors back in this time. This is all right, where we're always associated with women. Okay, like the way they smoked, the way they would hold their cigarettes, and stuff like that. Now, when I actually got out there to the general populace, I started seeing men do the same gestures and stuff. That I was associated with women. Okay, this is a construct, yeah, but a woman acting or being more motherly versus a guy that's not. Are you with me?
Speaker 2:So you're talking about instinct.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:Gender. To me, we need to base on instinct, not what we learn. It is our automatic behaviors, okay, the behaviors we would have out in the wild.
Speaker 2:Okay so, but when human beings are so out of touch with that, how do we get back in touch with that?
Speaker 3:Well, I mean, you actually got to start thinking about this stuff. What is it that you do naturally, you know? Do you really like that color because, well, everybody else likes that color, or do you like that color because you do?
Speaker 2:well, let's talk.
Speaker 3:But okay, you said instinct, right, so let's, let's talk about instinct from that standpoint because the kind of instinct I'm talking about is a family's out in the woods walking along. A bear pops out. The kids run behind the father Right, they scrape their knee, they run straight to their mom.
Speaker 2:And that's what I mean, like in a situation like that, like I know in my own house, right, right, if I hear a calamity inside the house. I am going to run toward it because my base instinct is who is hurt? What got broken? Right, Okay. Now. Conversely, if the calamity is outside of the house, my instinct is lock the door Right, Do not run toward that. And what's going to be my instinct as a guy.
Speaker 3:Yours is probably going to be to run toward it it's going to be to pick up a weapon and start heading that way right where, ironically, the calamity in the house.
Speaker 2:You're probably going to go, it's fine, it's fine and right and there. That's such a basic thing Thing. But I also see where you know again it's how do we study these things in a time when it's so confusing?
Speaker 3:I'm not really sure. All right, first of all, I think people need to have honest conversations about what they actually think is an actual gender behavior versus a behavior of an individual, just behavior.
Speaker 2:Right, and that brings up an interesting point. So I wonder is it a double edged sword, meaning we have so much time on our hands that we've made a big to-do about gender for no reason, right? Or is it that we have failed to just study behavior as a whole and put the focus there?
Speaker 3:put the focus there, because when I hear people talk about this in very general terms on this, it always seems to be more about people's individual personalities and wanting to call that a gender right instead of that's who this person is right, but like the same way.
Speaker 2:Okay, I mean, I know this is this is going to be a little all over the place, but I think it makes sense. You can have animals domestic animals, right? Dogs, cats, whatever guinea pigs that are the same sex, who will display humping behavior right to form dominance or to establish their pecking order Right, even though they appear to be performing a sexual act. It's not, there's no, yeah. So that behavior when we study that right, we understand why they do it. When we study that right, we understand why they do it. But we're so far removed from that now in modern society as it relates to man, right.
Speaker 3:I think there's only one true way to find this. All right, you need to start looking at feral kids. What you think I'm kidding?
Speaker 2:No, I don't think you're kidding, but that's almost impossible now. That's hard.
Speaker 3:But again if we go back and we look at the older cases where this actually happened. You can see which behavior. Which, because I would assume, gendered behavior for males and females in humans would be expressed in these people more than because they would be using those instincts more than we would.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:So if we go back and we look at them, we can sit there and go no, no, no. This is behavior that is only associated with this gender.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:At the end of the day.
Speaker 2:I don't know if we'll ever go back there no, because it sounds like it no, it sounds like a cruel social experiment that we can't conduct anymore.
Speaker 3:Let's admit it, the feral kids that happened this.
Speaker 2:It wasn't out of their own choice there were extenuating circumstances, right right but how is it that we are both so progressive with gender and so repressed with it at the same time? Like I said, we've come so far as a society that people are, you know, gay couples can coexist without having to really put a lot of thought into who's assuming what gender role, who cares? Right, there's a task that needs to be achieved. We're just gonna do it, you know, like. So we've come so far in those terms, but yet on the flip side of that, like I said, we've got the general idea of male population being completely just crushed underfoot at every turn, and then, yeah, women that almost want to turn back the clock on everything that has been achieved.
Speaker 3:So here's the problem you have with guys. All right, yes, we would do the fight clubs, we would do all this stuff. We would do a lot of the stuff that you see on tv. Okay, all right, if we could but, but none of us actually can but can't you? I mean, look at jackass true right, all right, you can I mean but then on the hand, I've also sat here and watched a video of four female cops not take down a six foot 250 pound guy and get away.
Speaker 2:But yeah, but, but OK, but to another point. Right, you hear about I heard a comedian talk about this recently and I did find it fascinating that you know toxic masculinity by the definition that most people are using all masculinity is toxic Right.
Speaker 3:That's the point.
Speaker 2:What is what is toxic versus what's just masculine? I don't.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Again, when we, when you start thinking about kids in schools. Schools are set up. Girls tend to do better in school than guys. Believe it, or? Not Sometimes, yeah, even though girls in junior high start getting lower grades than guys.
Speaker 2:Well, it's the mature faster. Yeah, all that stuff yeah.
Speaker 3:But girls are more equipped for that type of setting. For intellect yes, For that type of setting where guys would rather be out on the field.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a fight. It is a struggle for most men, I believe, to do that. And it's ironic because even in an era where we have kids who have grown up, who are now adult males right, who hold office jobs and work with computers and do all this stuff right, who hold office jobs and work with computers and do all this stuff, what is their outlet? Video games, fight games right, any group setting where they're playing a video game as a group and hunting and killing and surviving.
Speaker 2:It's an outlet for it. It's an outlet, yeah, and they really do anticipate or look forward to that interaction because, truthfully, they don't want to be stuck behind a desk all goddamn day if given, yeah, an alternative that you know made the money without actually breaking their back right yeah so again, is that male behavior?
Speaker 3:is that yeah, and again, you're right, it does it. At the end of the day, all man is toxic, according to some people but where are we going?
Speaker 2:like, what does this mean? Is it mean that there will be less of an emphasis on gender and maybe more of an emphasis on sex, or will it not matter? I just yeah.
Speaker 3:I'm not sure where it's going. I'm not completely opposed to the questions that people are asking about these Right. All right, Because again, some of these are good questions.
Speaker 2:All right, Like what truly is yeah.
Speaker 2:Versus others. All right, like what it truly is. Yeah, versus others because it it makes me wonder. Okay, when we look at our roles and we look at craft and we look at the gendered roles of priest versus priestess, I would like to think that most groups are progressive enough to say that if an individual displays more talent or more skill that leans towards an opposite gender role, we would simply let them fulfill that role. Right, because why am I going to try to force you into a hole? That doesn't make sense? Right, you're not going to do good at it. And then how does that benefit all of us? Right?
Speaker 3:right, because, again, we're not progressing on craft at all at that point, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2:so you know, I would like to believe that, but then it seems like there's just an awful lot of debate about what that means for the future and I don't, you know, I kind of go doesn't mean anything. It means we take people on an individual basis.
Speaker 3:I think the real problem on all of this is not the conversation. It's that some people are too busy going. I'm right, I don't need to listen to anyone else. Y'all should follow me instead. Interesting, I think there's the problem. Everybody wants to be right.
Speaker 2:That's a good point. That's a good point that there's just not enough thought being given to the topic. It's just everybody's trying to treat it as very black and white.
Speaker 3:Yes, Hmm, and again, I mean again when me and you have conversations, even stuff we don't agree with, we're still civil to each other. We're still trying to listen to the other person.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's interesting because I think when someone now even still has traits that are more akin to an opposite gender, it still is scrutinized, it still is kind of put under a microscope. Well, I mean.
Speaker 3:I grew up in an era where, if God forbid, you guys had long hairs, everybody would call you a girl, until you either got a cut or they moved on to the next victim.
Speaker 2:Right, right, absolutely.
Speaker 3:I mean because we came up in this era where guys were starting to wear earrings longer hair we were getting there was a lot of this absolutely.
Speaker 2:I mean, I still, I mean just the androgyny of the 80s. Yes, right, if you were, if you were even a little bit queer growing up in the 80s. It was so confusing it was it was so confusing. I mean, I remember being a kid, but it was easy.
Speaker 3:It was easier for gay people because it was easier to hide. Oh for sure, for sure, it's still be flamboyant well, it was an opening.
Speaker 2:It was an opening to this new idea, or, you know, not new idea, but this new way of being out in the world, being open with these things. But you know, I remember God, Boy George and Annie Lennox and Grace Jones.
Speaker 4:I was so confused grace jones.
Speaker 2:I was so confused and then and I mean that was the early to mid part of the 80s and then the hair bands came out and and everybody's just going. That's a pretty pretty man. I don't understand what's happening?
Speaker 3:why?
Speaker 2:are they all wearing spandex? Yeah, and makeup and yeah, I mean and the long hair, and it was it, but it would. That's one of the things that made it so fascinating, but we all accepted it but we were breaking what we, what we refer to, back then the traditional gender roles but those general, those were constructs, they were constructs we created but see, that's what's funny.
Speaker 2:I remember the term gender bending, yeah right being very popular and very common and that was a very acceptable way of looking at something. Is that you know, you were kind of you know, gender bent and I think I identified that way for a long time, but now it's so much more.
Speaker 3:I don't know consuming, but when you were doing the gender bending things, a guy could wear a tutu.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely but he would still just be a guy absolutely I mean, and but that's my point.
Speaker 3:But now now they've gotten all this to the point.
Speaker 2:As soon as you do one behavior, suddenly you're it's like everything's under a microscope, right, and then, on another hand, nothing's under a microscope, so I don't know it's it's all yeah craft again we. It's like we have foreseeable future. This is going to be a big part of modern life now is gender obsession I hope not I really do it just so, which also makes me go.
Speaker 2:at what point does a coven say enough, we're not doing this anymore. Right, we're not playing that game. But then how does that affect the very core of so much of the beliefs, when so many people still see a god and goddess as gendered individuals?
Speaker 3:But yet you're being told by other groups, groups. No, you have to worship a non-gender yeah I know it's, and again we're not the type of, we are not the type of tradition or anything to go out.
Speaker 2:You don't have to believe our way, we're not going to but, more importantly, we are also a tradition that goes, aspect we're, we're the ones who go that it is one being, right, right the way we view creation or the creator, it's one being, it is both, it is everything, it is nothing at the same time, at the same time. So that's what I mean. At what point do we toss out the other stuff in favor? At what point do the gods that we use inside of Circle, the ones that we call upon? At what point do they become a more gender blurred entity? Do you see that happening? Do you see a time where craft abandons?
Speaker 3:a male female. I sort of see people already moving toward that. I I hear more and more people talk about the concept of the source. Okay, that is all the deities wrapped up together right more now than before, but I also see these same people that talk about it also sit there and go.
Speaker 3:But we understand the importance of drilling down to this frequency or this specific deity for what we need interesting and I think, as we we're doing that more and more, we're going to have to start questioning ourselves what is actual instinct behavior for us versus what we create out of society? Right? Right that's where we need to start making that divided line all right. So I mean, I'm not sure how we get there. I'm not that kind of researcher yeah it's.
Speaker 2:It's a fascinating discussion, but it is a discussion that needs to be had more regularly, especially because we have to be prepared for it. Groups have to know where they stand, and I think that it's not enough to be wishy-washy or just unclear. Yeah, yeah, so it's an interesting discussion and I think I'm curious to see you know how gender studies and that gender evolution discussion continues with the pagan community we'll see. We should ponder it over. More coffee Yay.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening. Join us next week for another episode. Pagan Coffee Talk is brought to you by Life Temple and Seminary. Please visit us at lifetempleseminaryorg for more information, as well as links to our social media. Facebook Discord.
Speaker 4:Twitter, YouTube and Reddit fires, and so it is the end of our day, so walk with me till morning breaks. And so it is the end of our day. So walk with me till morning.
