Pagan Coffee Talk
We will discuss topics related to the Pagan community. All views are from a traditionalist's point of view. The conversations are unscripted (no preparations have been made ahead of time). A special thanks to Darkest Era for the use of their songs: Intro- The Morrigan, Exit - Poem to the Gael. Check them out at http://darkestera.net/.
Pagan Coffee Talk
Exploring Belief, Tradition, and Community Dynamics
Can belief make something real or sacred? Explore this compelling question with us as we unravel the intricate ties between belief, tradition, and community dynamics. The example of sage smudging serves as our starting point, where we question why this widespread belief persists despite our tradition's differing perspective. This episode challenges the notion that strong personal conviction can override traditional wisdom in rituals and spells. We also consider the art of sharing traditionalist perspectives with those holding different beliefs, and the nuanced approach required to avoid being dismissive or condescending.
Learn how to maintain the integrity of our beliefs while respecting diverse opinions and avoiding an authoritarian stance. We share a real-life conversation about hot foot powder from our coven's Discord server, illustrating the delicate balance between educating and preserving open dialogue. Reflecting on the significance of careful consideration before embracing new ideas, we encourage patience before making changes to established practices, always asking "why do we do things?".
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Discord: https://discord.gg/MdcMwqUjPZ
Facebook: (7) Life Temple and Seminary | Facebook
Welcome to Pagan Coffee Talk. If you enjoy our content, please consider donating and following our socials. Now here are your hosts, lady Abba and Lord Knight.
Speaker 2:Alright, Lord Knight, I got a fun question.
Speaker 3:Alright.
Speaker 2:If everyone believes something, does it make it real or sacred, or so, if the masses believe it?
Speaker 3:it real right I guess it would depend on what we're talking about all right, I'm gonna give you okay, if we're talking about a mountain, I don't think the mountain's gonna become a molehill okay all right, but so and I know we have talked about this before on this podcast- but,
Speaker 2:I'm gonna use it as an example because it's the best one I've got. We, as in Life Temple and Seminary, do not believe that sage is used for cleansing. No. However, the grand majority of people out there Do. Yeah, have now right, even people who are not practitioners of a certain path. Right, there is this wide held belief that has been adopted in native american sage smudging right that it cleanses and that it removes negativity. So if everyone believes it, is it true?
Speaker 3:I am cannot sit here and discount the power of belief. Right, all right. We all know how anybody who runs up against that mm-hmm gets flat and fast.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3:All right.
Speaker 2:I guess another way to look at it is if someone wants to use a rock, an herb, a thing inside of their ritual, but the advice about that item is different than what that person believes, if their belief is strong enough and their conviction is strong enough, does it matter?
Speaker 3:Does it really? I don't think it really matters at that point, when we're doing, when we're doing spells and stuff like this and we're we're doing real spells and we're trying to fix things about ourselves and all this other stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Belief is a big point to all this. Okay, all right. Again, I do not sit there and think, while at the same time I don't think anybody's going to sit there and be able to honestly turn a mountain into a molehill so here.
Speaker 2:But here's where it becomes interesting. Right so, as traditionalists, if we do not collectively, right as a group, a group, if we say, okay, we don't believe that sage cleanses, right, okay, and we meet someone who has been practicing, solitary, practicing on their own, for long periods of time, and they're doing this and they're used to doing it, and again, they believe that sage is doing this. What are we doing by imparting this knowledge? Are we bursting their bubble? Are we helping them? Are we hurting them? Or are we just giving them more information and then what they choose to do with it is up to them?
Speaker 3:I tend to go with the last one is what I it's what I tend to think is what I. This is what I see of it. Blah, blah, blah. Either you take it or you don't.
Speaker 2:Right, see, because I think there's been many instances where, as traditionalists we have I know, I've experienced it firsthand we feel like we're bursting someone's bubble Right, like well, I know you've been doing that thing, but here's why that's probably not working.
Speaker 3:You're also. You're also dealing with the whole entire problem on. This is even you've said it.
Speaker 2:Once you learn those mysteries the luster sort of yeah, it falls off yeah, yeah, but it's like in a weird way, are we? I don't know it's that it's it really is? To me it's a strange moment of? Are we? I don't know it's that it's it really is? To me it's a strange moment of, are we? How do we approach that then? How do we do that without having it be devastating for someone? I mean, could you imagine that you've got so many people right now? They smudge their house all the time right there. They may not even be connected to any form of paganism or craft, but they've been doing this and doing this and doing this because for them, they think it feels good, it they see a benefit. And then we come along and go yeah about that, about that, are we well?
Speaker 2:are we then the asshole right? Are we the jerks? Because we took that away from them? Yes, We've now caused them to question, right we?
Speaker 3:are the? I'm not saying we're not we are those jerks. But we're not doing it to be mean, are you with me? Okay, we're not sitting out to burst these people, right? I'm sorry, when you sit down and you ask me a question, what do I do? I give you an answer.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So here's the thing If the question isn't asked, do we volunteer? I tend not to.
Speaker 3:I tend not to Interesting. Now don't get me wrong. When I'm sitting there and I'm at those rituals and the person pulls out the sage and they do the whole thing, I'm like, okay, whatever, I just kind of roll my eyes, okay, okay. You can probably tell from my body language that I'm not too into this. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:But now what about in an environment? Okay, because I love the what if? Game.
Speaker 3:Right, right.
Speaker 2:So let's say we had a guest at our temple and they were maybe doing a demonstration or a teaching or class practice, whatever, and they say something that really greatly contradicts something that we have been teaching our folks for as long as we can remember.
Speaker 3:Is this person in there teaching our folks, or there's just a general class at a gather or something like that?
Speaker 2:Let's assume they're teaching our folks.
Speaker 3:Oh, then there would be no in our tradition. This is what we believe and why.
Speaker 2:Okay, so you would nip it in the ass, right then and there Right.
Speaker 3:Okay, because now we're talking about my tradition. Now, if we're out of the gather and somebody's doing, I'm just going to keep my mouth shut. This is what this person I cannot correct this person's feet okay I don't want it done to me. Why would I do it to?
Speaker 2:you okay. So it's basically to the difference of is it in my house right or not right okay, okay. Yeah, because we, again, we see this a lot like. Sometimes we have newer folks who come to craft and, look, we always have a fine balance between, I think, the new, very exuberant, very gung-ho students, right, who have been practicing in their own way for however long, and they want to share and they want to participate and they want community, and then there are the other members who, in many instances, are just like I don't know enough, so I'm not going to say anything, I'm going to keep my mouth shut, I'm just going to hang back. But a lot of times we see situations in that where, all of a sudden, we've got a neophyte, you know, talking about something that we as a third maybe don't agree with. It's basically, how do we continue to encourage that person to speak and to participate but also correct this thing that might confuse the hell out of everybody?
Speaker 3:Well, first of all, I think it's very important not to crush the original idea.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so again it's hard, again it can be really difficult, though I know, because you don't want to attack the idea, right. Directly.
Speaker 3:Right, all right. What you want to do is do here's what we believe and why. And so, because we believe this, this doesn't work like that. Here, right. And once we start breaking it down like that, either people are going to look at you going I'm nuts, or that makes better sense, okay, okay. Because I'm still back. At the end of the day, you have a choice.
Speaker 2:All right.
Speaker 3:People go to the doctor. You're going to the doctor to get his advice about your health. That's it. His professional advice doesn't mean you have to do it. You don't have to take the pills. You don't have to do the treatments if you don't want to you can look at the doctor and go. No, but no, everybody thinks you have to you're right.
Speaker 2:That makes an awful lot of sense. This is where it's. These are sticky inner workings, though. Yeah, it's tough.
Speaker 3:But you don't listen. But people don't listen to what priests and priestesses and doctors say. Here is our advice.
Speaker 2:This is what we think Right, Instead of taking it as what you think they've taken it as some gospel or something, because you have that title or you have that authority but then there's also the other piece, which is the conflictual piece, where we can come across as either know-it-alls or difficult or pick your adjective right we come pompous. That it's challenging because, on one hand, any priest or priestess worth their salt is going to be willing to say you know, I don't know. There are, there's a lot of gray right. There's a lot of things I don't know the answer to or I am unsure of. It could be this, it could be this, but now, when we get the pompous, and stuff like that out.
Speaker 3:It really depends on where the other person is. If the other person is already angry over the thing. No, but we come off as pompous I don't think it's always that.
Speaker 2:I think sometimes we just have to come in very quickly to course correct right and it seems like where it can come across that we're kind of really contradicting that person or singling them out or something like that. You know, um, it can be a fine line that we have to kind of ride because this day and age, so many people they have experience doing something, so they assume that that makes it correct. The neophyte is less less likely to say well, in my experience or in my opinion, right to clarify that it's singular and it's not everybody right, right that it, yeah, so I don't know, I don't know Like. We even had a had a quick one on discord the other day. I'm using this just because it's, it's the one that's right, top of mind.
Speaker 2:I mentioned something about a particular witch shop in town and their hot foot powder being excellent. Someone else said you know what is what is hot foot powder? And a first degree beat me to it and said well, it's, it's when you want to get rid of someone, right? Or I think they said, oh, it's when you want someone to leave you alone. That's what they said and I right, and I came back in.
Speaker 3:I got to remember.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they said. You know, they said it's when it's what you use, when you want someone to leave you alone. And I and I had to come back in and say, well, more specifically, it's when you want to get rid of something or someone. It's not just to get somebody to leave you alone. But you know, even writing that after the fact, one of the things that happens when you're a third is it shuts down the conversation Because it's our word, becomes the end word, and I'm like that's not what I wanted to have happen. I would have loved for the discussion to continue on.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's just we're putting a clarification in it, right, but no, you're right.
Speaker 2:It's hard for it to not come across as, oh, Lady Alba just put her foot down and said what this thing is and that's the end of the topic. No, no, I'm just trying to do my part to educate about the thing you know. I mean, even we didn't even get into you know the fact that it's not even our tradition Hot foot powder is. It's voodoo.
Speaker 3:Yeah, here's the reason I'm sitting here going uh, no um but it can be difficult.
Speaker 2:And again, this is where traditionalists, you know we ride that line. People do think that we tend to be very black and white in the thinking and I, and I think the mistake is they don't realize that when we say something like that, that is what we're doing, is we're saying well, in my tradition, in our tradition this is this and this is this. Other people see it as oh, they just shit all over what I think they're being elitist.
Speaker 3:They know what? All all the yes and you're sitting back going no. We're just saying this is what we believe.
Speaker 2:We didn't. We're not, we're not. Yeah, you can you. We didn't say you couldn't believe that.
Speaker 3:This is what drives me up the wall is why is it that, if I believe in something and you believe, in opposite that that means I have a negative connotation about it. That's a, a, you know what?
Speaker 2:bravo, because that's a damn good freaking question. When did that happen?
Speaker 3:when did it become? If I say a and you say b, that means war. War, I mean. Why do I automatically?
Speaker 2:have to right. You're right. You're right. Just because it doesn't mean that we cannot continue a civil discussion, it doesn't mean that we can't continue to coexist. It doesn't mean yeah I.
Speaker 3:I have no problem. If you're going to sit there, go. Hey, this is what we believe in blah, blah, blah. And this is why. Okay here, this is what we believe in while we believe blah, blah, blah, right, right, where are we similar?
Speaker 2:yeah, nobody threw down a gauntlet, not, it wasn't a challenge.
Speaker 3:But I see this happening more and more it's kind of like not trying to get political. It's like the whole immigration thing. If you're not, if you're not for illegal immigration, you're against all immigrants.
Speaker 2:That ain't you know what? Abortion? It's the same thing. It's the same thing. You, you, you must pick a side. Why, why, why? Why can't I just say this is me, if that's you cool, I didn't say anything anti. That's so funny, that's so accurate though, but it makes no sense to me yeah and again, and we can bring this up.
Speaker 3:It's like the whole initiation thing. Yes, we believe in it, but we're not setting our hair on fire because somebody else don't.
Speaker 2:But you're right, but this is where pagans, if we're being honest, this is where we are behind. We are behind because in every city, in just about every town, you have some sort of group or collective that is uh shoot, I'm forgetting the name right now, but basically it's a group where religious leaders from from multiple religions come together every so often and mingle and talk and and maybe they do a little panel or a discussion or they share their individual views on topics and these look, the christians have been doing this for a long time. Jews, muslims, um, all of your large mainstream religions have been doing this for a while.
Speaker 3:What is it? The Southern Baptist Convention? I don't even know. I mean, they have a big old convention each year.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah yeah, you'll have. You know, lutherans and Methodists and Catholics and Baptists and Zionists, all sitting down and just kind of talking. Yes, I can understand where people might say it's a little easier. Well, they all, they all believe in the bible. Yes, yeah, but they're all interpreting certain components of it differently. Yeah, so that's a chance to have these open discussions. Pagans are a little behind on that. We have not yet gotten to the place where we sit down with multiple traditions and just say we believe this about this, oh, and we believe this about this, and and just go okay and just hear it. Not, no, debating it, not to decide. Is that right or is it wrong? Is it law? Is it canon? Is who cares? Just to share?
Speaker 3:that's it no, no, I mean I. There's been plenty of times over the years I'm sitting here teaching classes going. Here's what I know about ravenwood and how they do this.
Speaker 2:Here's what I know, lord lou and their group that we gotten, because I think again in that whole idea of a reclaiming religion, everybody's trying to claim or reclaim, yes or no, right or wrong, do or don't, and it's like shut up, we're never going to be able to do that.
Speaker 3:Your first day in class, the first words that come out of my mouth, I am going to teach you a way.
Speaker 2:A tradition, a way? Yep Not the way. Mm, hmm, but we do, we lose it, we lose sight of that, and then everybody gets into their weird little bickery, whatever's.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:Or it goes round and around and around for way too long and it doesn't seem to End. Yeah, yeah, it just keeps going. Like nobody put a timer on it and went okay, five minutes discuss. Like nobody put a timer on it and went okay, five minutes discuss, and that's it At the end of five minutes. We're not trying to achieve anything. We're not trying to accomplish anything. It's it, we're done. We're done. Move on to another topic or let's have lunch.
Speaker 3:Whatever it is right. Yeah, this is stuff that I think we do need to do in the community. Trust me, I would love to get some other leaders on here and have some of these discussions.
Speaker 2:Oh God, yes, I mean, we're more than open to that, because we do. We want to have these discussions without that sense of it being a dispute or an attack or some backhanded slap against. Yeah, that's where it's so problematic. We are so quick and when I say we write pagans to like roll our eyes at what somebody else practices or does, and I'm like, when did this? Why? It's?
Speaker 3:it's tough, it's tough, yeah, I mean I for as much, as most people aren't going to like it. Yes, the lesson of treating others as you want to be treated is a quite helpful thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all right.
Speaker 3:It reminds you that people believe just as much in what they believe as you do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I mean we don't. It's not up to us, it's not up to us to convince, to sway, to try to infringe. All we can do is just say that is someone else's tradition, that's it, that's all there is to it. But it does become a challenge, even within a group setting. I mean, I've seen over my years at Life Temple write the whys. Someone says well, you should do blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Why?
Speaker 3:Why.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm, and most of the time, whether or not there is a why to back it up determines how valid we find that information, then yes, yeah, yeah, yes, I mean again the why behind everything's important it is it really is um there. We, we can't, we can't dispute that there is yeah there's a lot of need behind the why, but this is good though. This is a great, I hope, eye opener and discussion builder.
Speaker 3:My point here is it can be done. We've been involved in this. We've involved with other temples that do completely different than us yeah. All right, it is capable, and so, if you just got to remember, you need to stay on your side of the fence yeah, well it's.
Speaker 2:Look, I mean, when I go to another group's ritual, I'm just here for the ride. Yeah, I mean, at that point I I look at it this way I go, this is not my car and I am not in the driver's seat, nope. And so if this person decides to take a left on main street when I think they should have taken a right, well, I guess we're going around the block, guys, because I have no control over what's happening and it's not my place. It is not my place at all, to. I'm in their house.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, you're in their circle yeah, yeah, yeah, you're in their circle. Yeah, I'm a guest, you're expecting representation in someone else's circle.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, what, really yeah. So I'm just here for the ride and that's it. And I mean I will always try to have an intelligent discussion after the fact, especially if there's something I'm unfamiliar with, to say, well, why did you do it that way or what is that?
Speaker 3:you know, and I've never seen that before, and maybe I'll get an answer well, what's surprising is is how many times you get those questions and then you start going back and looking at your own tradition yes, yes, and, mind you, for a lot of our elders, that's how they form their circles in the first place yeah.
Speaker 2:Because they were doing something. Then they saw another group do something and they went wait, that's a better idea. Yeah, and they altered their own material. And I mean, do we then point fingers and go, oh, you stole that from the Gardnerians or you borrowed that from the? I don't know. None of us knows with a hundred percent certainty all right, I'm sorry.
Speaker 3:When it comes to witchcraft, placing cultural appropriation on it is stupid. There's no way idea.
Speaker 2:We have no way of knowing if it's right or if it's wrong by any measure of antiquity. So okay, okay, if that seems to work better, then you make a change. Where you want to be cautious is that you're not doing it just because you saw it right like, oh, we just got back from so-and-so's ritual and now we're gonna rewrite everything. No, no, no, hang on, hang on. You know, maybe take a step back and analyze it first and give it some time before you start like rewriting a lecture series, because of one thing.
Speaker 3:Right, yeah, huh, anything else.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 3:I think that's it.
Speaker 2:Let's go get coffee Coffee.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening. Join us next week for another episode. Peg and Coffee Talk is brought to you by Life Temple and Seminary. Please visit us at lifetempleseminaryorg for more information, as well as links to our social media Facebook, discord, twitter, youtube and Reddit.
Speaker 4:We travel down this trodden path, the maze of stone and mire. Just hold my hand as we pass by a sea of blazing pyres.
Speaker 1:And so it is the end of our day so walk with me till morning breaks.
Speaker 4:And so it is the end of our day so walk with me till morning.
