Pagan Coffee Talk
We will discuss topics related to the Pagan community. All views are from a traditionalist's point of view. The conversations are unscripted (no preparations have been made ahead of time). A special thanks to Darkest Era for the use of their songs: Intro- The Morrigan, Exit - Poem to the Gael. Check them out at http://darkestera.net/.
Pagan Coffee Talk
Pagan Partnerships and Daily Practices
Relationships and spiritual practices merge in this thought-provoking discussion that challenges conventional religious expectations. Our hosts explore how paganism approaches romantic partnerships with refreshing openness, removing judgment from situations other traditions might condemn. From women taking the lead in relationships to the acceptance of diverse family structures, this conversation reveals how paganism prioritizes personal autonomy and mutual respect over rigid rules.
We tackle the delicate dynamics of interfaith partnerships, offering practical wisdom for those navigating spiritual differences with their loved ones. Rather than promoting marriage for religious growth, our tradition focuses on ensuring couples make sound, mature decisions based on genuine connection.
The conversation shifts to daily spiritual practices, examining how meditation serves as a cornerstone of pagan devotion. While encouraged, these practices aren't burdened with strict requirements – instead, we explore how to make them sustainable and meaningful. Our hosts share practical techniques for establishing meditation habits, including the often overlooked "walking meditation" that allows spiritual connection during everyday activities like driving or household chores.
Through personal stories and thoughtful analysis, we illustrate how spiritual growth doesn't require perfect adherence to rules, but rather mindful presence in life's journey.
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Speaker 3:I'd like to talk about donating and following our socials of relationships, specifically Because there's a lot of kinds of relationships. Well, I'm talking husband wife, Ah, okay, and adults, right, okay, so significant others we're not talking about, like family members and things like that, okay.
Speaker 2:I want to see Aaron saying in our belief system that I believe that we tend to want the women to make the first move. That sort of plays out in our religion because the whole concept of the God chasing after the goddess Sure, that keeps on coming into play in our religion over and over again as she dances around tempting him.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, but I think any relationship, I mean, obviously, if we go there, that negates, you know, like same-sex unions, where you'd still have that dynamic. Somebody's always kind of the chaser, right, yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, I believe that we see it as more of a. It's the woman's priority to initiate before the guys, even though the guys might be sitting there going, hey, I'm here, I'm here, see me, I'm flirting.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I got you. Yeah yeah, that makes sense. I think pagan women in general tend to be more forward.
Speaker 2:I believe they're the ones that initiate the relationship. They're the ones sit down and look at their significant others going. Oh no, this is a relationship, just to let you know.
Speaker 3:I think that's the case. Yeah, but I think that's that's the case in a lot of instances, I think. Like I said, I think pagan women are just more forward because we are not. Women are just more forward because we are not. We're more, we're more aware of our role in the union or in any type of relationship, as a pivotal player, and not just you know right how, how some faiths view a woman as being the lesser decision maker. Yeah, so we do. We do. We tend to be more forward, I think Okay.
Speaker 2:So what other things does our religion actually say about relationships that you see, and how we're supposed to treat each other?
Speaker 3:I think it's. There's very little right in the way of like hard and fast rules. We're not, we don't have that when it when it comes to marriage or union or relationships. But you know, we can always look to the tenants, we can always look to craft law and find, I think, meaning in the way we view self-conduct. Um, we tend to be a lot more up front with our partners and we tend to be a little bit more blunt, which just comes down to if, if you can't, if you can't depend on me to tell you the truth, then who can you? Kind of thing.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:So there's that element. I think too, it depends on if you want to go down the rabbit hole of the different traditions where you have more stringent guidelines, like with the Celts, and you know the way they viewed a union for a year and a day and you know that sort of thing.
Speaker 2:We pretty much do, don't we? I mean, and the sort of the society we live in, I mean, we're doing this pretty much now, most people live together now, before they even get married.
Speaker 3:Oh, for sure.
Speaker 2:For sure, I mean.
Speaker 3:It's very rare nowadays to get married and never have and not have lived with a partner or, you know, experienced a trial. You know playing house, so to speak.
Speaker 2:Now I mean but would you encourage people in temple to get married?
Speaker 3:Oh, that's a crazy question, I don't know. I mean from a religious standpoint.
Speaker 2:as priests and priestesses, we want our religion to grow. We want our people to get married, we want them to have kids and the whole nine yards. Is it our job to encourage this or not to encourage?
Speaker 3:I'm asking the way it used to be. I mean, oddly right, the fundamentalist view in the Christian faith. I don't think it's applicable to us. You know, so much of what happens in the Christian faith is the idea that you have a union under God, right, you meet a partner, you have the same faith or same beliefs. You have to be on the same page or you can't get married effectively. And then you enter the union, you have children and then you raise those children in the faith. So in a weird way, right, it's proselytizing within the house, right, which I think is kind of crap, kind of crap, you know, for modern peoples. I mean, I think pagans in a lot of ways were the originators of. We don't necessarily believe the same thing, and that's fine, we can still get along, we can still have a successful marriage without being exactly the same in our personal beliefs.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:And the idea of, you know, having children for the sake of, uh, you know, bolstering the numbers of the church. I mean, that's that's crazy talk Like that's that's not why you, that's not a good reason to have kids. Um, so I mean, but no, it's not.
Speaker 2:But yet we still see this behavior in a lot of religions, sure you know?
Speaker 3:sure, but to me it's like speaking as a priestess. Right? It's more important to me that if a couple comes to me and they want to get married, that they have had ample time together to, you know, make sure they're not rushing into anything and that they know each other well enough that they're making a good move, right, like. It's not like they met three weeks ago and now they want to get married because that's just nuts. So the pain, right, right, right. So my responsibility as a priestess becomes more about.
Speaker 3:Are they entering into this soundly, you know, have they? Are they both on the same page? Do they? Have they thought about the future together? Have they had ample time to get to know one another and adjust to life together? You know, are they acting not from a place of impulse but a place of love and commitment? And really, outside of that, you know, are they just both displaying the mental and emotional maturity for a union? That's it. Have they like? Like, if there's, if there are people within our temple, specifically, we might recommend marital counseling pre, because that's never a bad idea, whether it be spiritual counseling or, you know, actual therapy. But that's, that's really all I. I look at you know, right? Is it just a sound decision for the two people entering into it?
Speaker 2:Well, since you mentioned it earlier, even though we both have been in relationships where our significant others are of different religions, do you think it's easier when people are of the same religion when getting together?
Speaker 3:are of the same religion when getting together. Sure, it also depends on the goals. It depends on the goals of the marriage, right? If so many couples nowadays enter into marriage and they don't want children? Kids are not a priority for a lot of people anymore. So if you don't want kids, then certain aspects of your relationship, like religion, are less poignant. To some people they're less important, because it's not necessary for both partners to be on the same page.
Speaker 3:If there's not a little person that they're trying to raise in between two faiths, everybody can just do their own thing. If they do want kids, then it's just wise to have a plan, right? How are you going to go about this? How are you going to teach this child or introduce them to one faith, both faiths? You know what's. What's the plan there? To not create confusion, right, and to create something stable.
Speaker 3:But yeah, it is in the sense of participation. You know like, look, people were pack animals, right. At the end of the day, we really are Human beings are just a form of a pack animal. We, we like samesies, we like order, we like for things to be the same, and so when you have a specific religious calendar and you have rights and things that you're following. You kind of want your partner to be there. You want them to you. You want to feel the solace, the peace. You want your partner to experience that as well. So it can be tough if and when there's either a resistance, or they don't want to participate, or it's not of interest to them, or you know.
Speaker 2:It's traded like you're out there talking to yourself in the middle of the night for the fun of it, kind of.
Speaker 3:Kind of, but I mean ironically. You know, there is the funny thing about religion, right, if we extrapolate, if we pull deity out of the situation and we pull right some of the spirituality out and we just look at the actions and we just look at the things we do, we look like crazy people I know I I'd hate to think what aliens think of us, right?
Speaker 2:what are these people doing? Why?
Speaker 3:it reminds me of one of my favorite comedians. Talks about how if you extrapolate the bride from a wedding and you just look at what the bride by herself, it is an exercise in madness, right? This is a grown woman dressing up like a human cupcake.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:To run around for the day going. I'm a pretty pretty princess. It's ridiculous.
Speaker 2:I've never gotten over the whole entire concept of the veil. Yeah, I mean, like what, you didn't see her beforehand, I mean really, I mean.
Speaker 3:Well, but again. But the religious significance of the veil, what you didn't see, her beforehand, I mean really. I mean well, but again. But the religious significance of the veil, right, goes way, way, way, way back. The religious significance and the various cultural influences of the veil, yeah, yeah, they go way back and nobody practices those anymore. Nobody, like most people don't even give a damn. Now, it's just oh, it's a pretty head thing.
Speaker 3:Well, I mean that's kind of like most people go. You sit there and go. Why do you jump over the brain? Yeah, I mean, you ask most black couples. They know the answer to that. Thank you, yeah, that's there is the irony, right, tradition is, it's what there's customs, and that's what weddings have largely become. A large portion of what it is is custom and ceremony, but origin is not always being adhered to and some people don't even care, right, they just they want the pomp and circumstance. So, okay, have it. But yeah, I mean for us, I don't know.
Speaker 3:I think, in the bigger picture, when, when we think about pagan relationships, we're, you know, as a culture, if we want to look at it that way, I like to think we're less judgmental. You know, we don't much care. We don't. I mean care is a wrong word, right, it makes us seem like we don't care. We don't, but we don't. We don't care about a lot of the same things that other faiths put so much emphasis on. We don't care if a couple is quote unquote living in sin, or if you have a child out of wedlock. We don't care about the status of your virginity. We don't care about what you choose to do in the privacy of your own bedroom.
Speaker 2:We, we just don't, we just don't give a shit, we don't regulate any of that, in fact at the end of the day, if you don't want somebody in your business, you sure in the world don't want to be anybody else's.
Speaker 3:Right. So, but again, for a lot of us there it's more accepting. You will be hard pressed in most instances to find a pagan who is shocked or surprised by someone else's relationship, status or situation or whatever it is that they do. I also look at relationships much the way I look at other traditions. Your relationship is yours, it's not mine, right, so I can easily go well, that's their relationship. If that works for them, that's fine. It's not my tradition, but that's okay. That's how I view that sort of thing. We, we tend not to judge, we tend not to be shocked. You know, sex is a unto itself, something that we, the majority of us I mean I can't speak for everybody, but, right, we tend to consider it to be a healthy thing until it isn't right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean we just we don't put a lot of restrictions on people like that, we don't. We don't have a lot of hard fast rules about. You know, a wife must do X or a husband must do X, Like we don't Don't think about it. Well, I think that, ironically, especially now that a lot of people are, you know, in open marriages and open relationships and you have a lot more polyamory going on, I think some of my friend group and some people that I know were far more shocked by that, and I think my time as a pagan kind of made me go eh, okay.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, I'd put it to you this way for as long as me and Lord Oswin have been together, everybody in the pagan communities always treated us automatically as if we were married. Yeah, sure, I mean, there was no question about it. Yeah, those two were together. Yeah, so open, accepting the whole nine yards. Mm-hmm, you know, there's really nothing else to hear except to sit there and say, hey, what would be your best advice for someone starting a relationship?
Speaker 3:I mean, I feel like it's, but we had to get more specific than that. I mean that's too open-ended.
Speaker 2:I feel like why Wouldn't you say, like the biggest thing for relationship is just communication, just sitting down and talking to each other?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's, it's communication, it's honesty, it's not deferring. You know, those are the biggies.
Speaker 3:I just I don't feel like it's as complicated as people want to make it yes, I'd agree with you there yeah, honestly, I I feel like if there's anything I've learned over the years, it's the idea that If there's anything I've learned over the years, it's the idea that expectation disappointment okay, disappointment is what happens when your expectation is to be over there, but you're over here, right, yeah, so if your expectations of your partner are vastly different than the reality that you are currently living in, right, that's going to be a recipe for disaster. But acceptance is key, yeah. What else? What do you think? I mean, it is an interesting topic, it is I'm realizing it Coffee Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:Now, in our tradition, we have daily activities that we are required. Unfortunately, ours is only meditation.
Speaker 3:True and required is such a strong word, even as well.
Speaker 4:Yeah, true.
Speaker 3:And required is such a strong word. Even as well, I think you know Life Temple. We require our neophytes to meditate daily. We encourage everyone else to. It's not, yeah, I wouldn't see it as a requirement. We're not, you know, we're not Muslim. We don't you know. Yeah, we don't pray five as a requirement. We're not Muslim, we don't, you know, yeah.
Speaker 2:We don't pray five times a day.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:Toward Magga.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, I do think that meditative practice is very important to our faith. But yeah, I don't know, I'm just always a little leery of the required. I don't know, I'm just always a little leery of the required. Where it gets weird, though, you know, is I mean, but that's just us, I don't. I don't know about others, I don't.
Speaker 2:Well, I've always seen there's a difference between I'm required to do my homework, but if I'm learning something on my own and wanting to learn it, I'm more out to do it, you know. In other words, if I want to do a prayer in the morning, that seems to be more spiritual or more rewarding than I'm required to pray so many times a day.
Speaker 3:I've made my quota Well, but that's just because that's not your faith or tradition. You know what I'm saying. If it was, you might think differently about it. I don't think that most practicing Muslims see their daily devotionals as a chore, I think, you know. For them it's, you know, I'm sure there's, you know, moments where you're like, oh geez, I'm a little tired today. I wish I didn't have to. But I don't think they see it as a chore. But for us outside, looking in, of course, it seems that way We'd be like jeez, this is a lot.
Speaker 2:Well, some people say the same thing about us saying hey, you need to meditate at least once a day.
Speaker 3:I mean look at the Wiccan calendar. Yeah, at least once a day. I mean, look at the wicked calendar. Yeah, you know, we have some witches celebrate all the full moons yes they celebrate all of the new moons yes they celebrate all of the grands, yes, all of the lessers. That's a lot, um. I mean, if all you do is the full moons and the eight Sabbaths, right?
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:You're already at 20 individual right. Right 20 annual celebrations, sometimes 21, if it's right, because there's often a blue moon, uh so, and some people might go. Well, you know we, you know other other faiths go to church weekly. Yeah sure, some twice a week, some go twice a week, I mean.
Speaker 2:So I think it just depends on that particular tradition, I mean, but you're not going to sit there personally saying somebody has to do this.
Speaker 3:No.
Speaker 2:We want people to do these things right and we want to encourage people to do them. So how do we encourage them without making them feel like it is a chore or task?
Speaker 3:it is a chore task Again. I just think this is where everyone's individual faith varies. But I mean, if we're talking about faith as a whole, if we're talking about faith in the grand scheme, right, not just us, right, you know, because when you say we here, I think you're using the royal we, yeah.
Speaker 2:Religion in general.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's about seeing the benefit that is brought to their life, any kind. When you see the power that it has and when you see what it can achieve and you see the growth from it, sure it becomes less chore-like Now this is also why typically you get them started as kids.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well again, I've known to sit there and encourage people to do the affirmations. This, to me, is still the same thing as doing a prayer or anything else. It's just you're doing it to yourself, not directly to a deity or something like that.
Speaker 3:I mean many would argue what's the difference?
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 3:Yeah, as long as you are taking time out of your day to be aware of your spiritual self, to honor your spiritual self, to connect with your spiritual self.
Speaker 2:Right, you're just taking time out of yourself to have that moment of reverence of spirituality out of the day.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but there is also an inner and outer component here, right, I think pagans are a little more aware of this than other faiths. Potentially there is a. There are prayers, offerings, mini rituals that you offer to the gods, but then there's the things that you do for yourself.
Speaker 2:So it's interesting how I don't know, maybe that's even an inaccurate way of looking at it, I'm not sure so now here's a question for you when does one of these daily practices become more of a hindrance than a help? Is there a possibility?
Speaker 3:yeah so that's the risk we take when a somebody starts walking the spiritual plane. Too damn much Right.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:It's very easy to fall into sort of a meditative addiction.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:You want to spend more time there than you do here. In our world, there's also um dependency yes there can be a very strange, you know like an almost dependent sort of like. I've seen it with divination, right, I've seen it with we've seen it with.
Speaker 3:You know, like, like I can't do anything without consulting the cards first right yeah you know, I can't, I don't know if I should buy an avocado or a without consulting a card yeah, a lot of indecision of right and let me ask the gods, it's like, well, they got better things to do, but yeah.
Speaker 2:So that's when it starts to become a hindrance. Let's say, you're trying to start a daily practice, right, regardless of what it is meditating, praying, whatever. What are some ways to help make these more of a habit?
Speaker 3:Pick a time every day, right, same time, same place. Make a space, you know, make a special little spot for the purpose of meditation. I think that it's important to, if need be, set a timer.
Speaker 2:Reminders Mm-hmm. Yeah, Now here's the funny part On average, once you've done something, for what? Three months, it's pretty much considered a habit About that, yeah.
Speaker 3:It depends. There's different views of that, but yes, after after a while, it just becomes the norm yes, and you no longer need all this because you're automatically doing.
Speaker 2:It's kind of like getting up and making coffee first thing in the morning. Yeah, for sure, I know it's the first button I press.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's just a habit, yeah.
Speaker 2:And don't even think about it.
Speaker 3:Nope.
Speaker 2:Not really Now, when doing these things, when doing these, is that a better way of doing it Doing these things without actually thinking about them, or taking that moment and thinking about what you're doing while you're doing it? Should it be more automatic or should it be more thoughtful? Because I could see the advantages of both.
Speaker 3:I don't know. There's again. What comes to mind is a lot of Muslim practices regarding daily devotionals and prayers, and on one hand, what they do can seem a little complicated, yeah. But then you also realize, does that not add to the ritualness of it? The mistake.
Speaker 2:The spirituality, the movement.
Speaker 3:Mm-hmm, look, there's something about it that I like, right, because what they do is body and mind, right, it's very in tune and there's a series of things that take place and I do believe that that has a benefit, because it readies the mind, it readies the body, the spirit, right, it all comes together due to how specific it is. It also, let's be honest, it's a little bit of I almost want to say it's a little bit of pain, right, it's a little bit of an inconvenience. An inconvenience and you know the gods enjoy inconveniencing us. It's right. It's like. To me it's like when we play tug of war with an animal, right, when I play tug of war with a dog, I'm intentionally making its life a little difficult in that moment.
Speaker 3:It's I'm I'm trying to make it fun, but let's be honest, I'm also frustrating the dog.
Speaker 2:Well, it's kind of like playing video games on god mode. They're not.
Speaker 3:They're only fun for about five or ten minutes, yeah because, there's no real challenge there right, it's sort of the same thing here. I feel like you know the gods are yeah, of course they want a little bit of the. We have to be a tiny bit inconvenienced if we expect to learn and grow from the process so it shouldn't be like going to mcdonald's.
Speaker 3:No, not really, not really um, and also I think you know, the older we get, it it's funny, right? Like again, I look at the Muslim prayer practice and I'm like man, it's all well and good when you're in your 20s and your knees are great.
Speaker 3:You know, what's it like for grandpa in his 70s? He's got to get down on the ground and get on his knees. It's not comfortable, what you know. It's not the worst thing in the world, but it's. It's not great and there is something to be said for that. It is part of the challenge of a daily devotional, of a meditation, is to be able to put aside your own discomforts, to work through them, to still have that moment with God, and that's not always easy.
Speaker 2:No, but I don't think we think of these daily devotional things in the same way we do ritual devotional things in the same way we do ritual, but technically they are To some extent there's still a connection to the divine, to all this. So why do we look at this differently than we would? Ritual? Because in my head I see I'm sort of connected or the same.
Speaker 3:I see it as it's a. It's a little mini piece of it. Yeah, it's a piece of ritual circle that you can take with you every day. There remains with you. But is it the same? No, no, I don't believe that it is.
Speaker 2:You don't see Cause is you don't, mm-mm?
Speaker 3:See because I still believe. First off, I'm not calling quarters, no, and I'm not creating an elaborate circle. I'm not building the temple. No, you're not you know for my daily moment.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 3:Yeah, my daily moment. No, yeah, but it's the daily moment that helps prepare us to be able to be in the right headspace to build ritual space. Yes, so they are important, they are tied together, but outside of that, no no, I don't.
Speaker 3:I don't see it that way, because to me it's just that it's being able to drop into an almost a meditative state at the drop of a hat, and we see it a lot. It gets very frustrating. We see first degrees especially. It's very frustrating. We see first degrees especially. I feel like they come in and it doesn't seem to matter how many times we say drop your baggage at the door, and whatever else is going still doesn't seem to fail right. There's always a bit of a frazzled. There's always a couple of people that are just that, they're frazzled. It seems like from the minute they walk in the door they're always a bit exasperated. They're always breathing a little too heavy. They're always, you know, just. It seems like they never relax Right, and the idea is just that their daily meditative practice should be able to help them to drop into that space very quickly upon entering the temple doors, to be able to then perform their duties.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but it doesn't always happen that way.
Speaker 2:No, it doesn't yeah. It'll get wrapped up in their way. No, it doesn't yeah. It'll get wrapped up in their lives a whole lot easier than we think they do, which is ironic because well and I the time they step out of that car right, yeah, I mean after fighting traffic and the whole nine yards, they're a bundle of nerves versus the person who learns to meditate in traffic and while driving they get out of the car.
Speaker 3:they're're fine, they're already ready to go yeah that's what I used to do when I had to travel.
Speaker 2:You know, I would just slip into a meditation behind the wheel yeah yeah, it's actually one of my favorite things to do actually, it seems to be the best place to do that sometimes I'm always yeah, I mean, unless you're behind 18 wheelers, then you'll just pull off when they pull off I mean, I do find, I always do find that funny.
Speaker 3:You know we're a big fan of the walking, talking meditation yeah and I think people are, you know, often confused about what that means, but it's just that it's it's one foot in both places, yeah, and it's the ability to let the creative mind, the imagination, take over. Yeah, yeah, you know, I think there's just the idea that rhythmic activity like driving, oh yes, there's a lot of different ways that people can obtain a meditative state. They have to, you know, for the people that again, who are sitting there like I can't do it, it takes practice, but sometimes it's worth trying to meditate while doing something that is automatic.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's easy to get on into a track and go into a meditative state when you're just walking around.
Speaker 3:Mopping, sweeping, vacuuming, any of those mowing the lawn. Yes, they're all very, they're great ways.
Speaker 2:Doing the lawn is a whole lot easier, especially when you're using a lawnmower, because you could sort of use the vibrations of the lawnmower to help you.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, absolutely, especially when you're using a lawnmower, because you could sort of use the vibrations of the lawnmower to help you, absolutely, absolutely. I've done that more than once, yeah, yeah. So so if the sitting still thing isn't working for you, yeah, try it a different way, anything that is a very repetitive motion, and movement helps tremendously. And if all else fails, there's always Tai Chi.
Speaker 2:Yes, there is, believe it or not. Even solitaire can help you do the same thing. The card game, the card game.
Speaker 3:Technically couldn't any card game.
Speaker 2:Technically. But solitaire is a little bit easier. You're doing it by yourself in your own concert. You're not sitting there debating or formulating. That's true, it's my component. Yeah, that's true, that's true. Ready for some coffee.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's definitely time for more coffee.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening. Join us next week for another episode. Pagan Coffee Talk is brought to you by Life Temple and Seminary. Please visit us at lifetempelseminaryorg for more information, as well as links to our social media Facebook, discord, twitter, youtube and Reddit.
Speaker 4:We travel down this trodden path, the maze of stone and mire. Just hold my hand as we pass by a sea of blazing pyres. And so it is the end of our day. So walk with me till morning breaks. And so it is the end of our days. So walk with me till morning.
