Pagan Coffee Talk
We will discuss topics related to the Pagan community. All views are from a traditionalist's point of view. The conversations are unscripted (no preparations have been made ahead of time). A special thanks to Darkest Era for the use of their songs: Intro- The Morrigan, Exit - Poem to the Gael. Check them out at http://darkestera.net/.
Pagan Coffee Talk
Balance in Faith: Why Both Religion and Spirituality Matter
Two voices engage in a spirited philosophical debate that cuts to the heart of modern spiritual practice: can religion exist without spirituality? Can spirituality thrive without religious structure?
The conversation begins with defining terms – spirituality as the personal, intuitive connection to something greater, and religion as the framework through which we express that connection. One host suggests spirituality represents the magical, chaotic element while religion provides necessary organization. This framing becomes the foundation for exploring what happens when these elements fall out of balance.
Through candid exchanges, they examine religious organizations that have lost their spiritual essence, becoming what one host describes as "cults" rather than true religions. The emptiness of ritual without connection becomes painfully clear. Yet equally problematic is spirituality without structure – the hosts suggest this explains why many pagan paths struggle with continuity and growth despite their appeal.
The discussion takes a fascinating turn when examining how pagan traditions often deliberately separate responsibilities: high priestesses focusing on spiritual nurturing while priests handle organizational elements. This intentional division allows both aspects to flourish simultaneously, creating a more complete religious experience that honors both structure and spirit.
What emerges is a compelling case for balance. The ideal spiritual path contains enough structure to provide direction without suffocating individual connection. Like a "vague-ish path in the woods" rather than complete wilderness, spiritual seekers need some form of guidance – especially those who struggle with self-teaching. Yet this structure must remain flexible enough to allow for personal exploration and emotional connection.
For anyone questioning the role of organization in spiritual practice or feeling disconnected from overly rigid religious structures, this conversation offers a thoughtful middle path. The hosts ultimately agree: while spirituality can exist without religious structure, and religious forms can exist without spiritual depth, the richest, most fulfilling path combines both elements in a dynamic balance that shifts naturally over time.
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Speaker 2:Okay, can you have religion without spirituality?
Speaker 1:This is a good question. Me personally, I don't think you can. I think they go hand in hand.
Speaker 2:Well, what's the difference? What is the difference between spirituality and religion? How do you see that?
Speaker 1:I see spirituality as more of your connection to whatever it is is out there Right Right. Religion is what you do to express that connectivity.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Does that make sense to you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, if we sort of look at it in a slightly different way, all right, if we think of spirituality as magic or chaos, complete random stuff, and religion as organization.
Speaker 1:Okay, but then you're bringing a whole magic aspect.
Speaker 2:Well, no, I said sort of like magic Okay, but then you're bringing a whole magic aspect.
Speaker 1:Well, no, I said sort of like magic, Okay sort of.
Speaker 2:In other words, it's that random, it's that so personalized to one individual it's hard to explain to others. Okay, I got you All right. Your spiritual when we call it all spirituality, but it's your perception of it versus. Spirituality to me is a less tangible thing than religion.
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, that's, that's the reason why I said yeah to me. Religion is you, is the way you express it it's, it's the rituals it's the, it's the burning of the incense, the meditations, all that stuff. That's how you're expressing your connectivity to whatever it is you believe in.
Speaker 2:Right, because again you wind up with this whole entire thing of do you believe because you worship or do you worship because you believe. Which came first, the chicken?
Speaker 1:or the egg.
Speaker 2:I mean, again, it's still the same, we're still on the same argument as spirituality or religion. Yeah, all right. Well, again, I think you can have a religion without spirituality.
Speaker 1:Well, I was going to say when you put it in that context yeah, yeah, I think you can what. I think you can have one without the other.
Speaker 2:Well, you can but I think when working together they complement each other a whole lot better, absolutely All right. So again, the idea here is to keep that balance. How do you keep that spirituality, that randomness, are you with me and still be able to organize to make sure everybody shows up to the ritual on time?
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, that depends on whether or not you're working with a coven, if you're solitary.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean just any religion, because again. I mean, I know, but I'm just saying yeah. If you're coven being a part of a church whatever, when you start making committees about committees, that just sucks all the spirituality out.
Speaker 1:If you're on your own. I think it's easier to do, because then you don't have to worry about this person and that person.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean when you're doing it but I think that what happens is you wind up losing the religious side of it Right, but that's what we're talking about.
Speaker 1:You don't have to have one to have the other.
Speaker 2:Yes, but just like I said, I think they actually complement each other. If a religion had both spirituality and the religion together, it's a whole lot better experience for everybody.
Speaker 1:Well, now, okay. Now, here's the funny thing when we're talking about that. I think, based on what we've just discussed, right. You can have spirituality without religion, but you can't have religion without spirituality.
Speaker 2:You sure about that? I think so, I don't know. I've gone to a lot of churches and a lot of religions and some of them seem quite mundane. It's like all the spirituality has been sucked out. We're going to just do this over and over again. It's the same formula, right, and it's empty, and it's empty. To me that's not religion, no, it's not. But yet I see religions do it all the time to some extent.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but, and again my opinion, unpopular opinion, whatever you want to call it, I don't think that's religion. You can't. In my opinion, you can't call that religion People do, though that's a cult.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:That's not a religion, that's a cult.
Speaker 2:But again, people do this, people fall into this, people go in there Well, sure they do. And again, the spirituality's been done and it's been ripped out. You have to do your. Everything's very structured.
Speaker 1:But again, that's not religion.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:That's a poor, very, very poor substitute. Like I said, that's a cult.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, you might as well just look at it. Well, think about it this way, think of Scientology. Yeah, I mean, this is what we're talking about.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:As an example of what I'm talking about a religion that has no spirituality to it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean. Well, from what I know of Scientology, no, there's no spirituality there.
Speaker 2:No, it's all biofeedbacks and all this other stuff. So again they exist, so you can have a religion without spirituality. I'm not saying it's good, Okay.
Speaker 1:And, yeah, we'll beg to differ on that because, again, I cannot call that a religion. Well, again let's talk about. You know, when we talk about spirituality, going haywire too, oh, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean this winds up with the pagan standard time and you're not having ritual until midnight for some dumb reason.
Speaker 1:Well, and it also. It also goes into if you're too spiritual, then you're not grounded, you're not, you're not in this world and your head's always in the clouds, right, you're just kind of your space cadet academy number one, you know.
Speaker 2:But then, in that it seems like religions without spirituality, they're missing something. Yes, All right. Now again, don't get me wrong. I'm with you. I think spirituality should be part of religions, but I think humanity keeps on doing the same thing.
Speaker 1:We like to organize ourselves, sometimes a little too much.
Speaker 2:A little too much, and that's where I see the felon-ness in certain religions, even though they're trying to keep the spirituality, but because they have committees, the bout committees.
Speaker 1:Well and see, okay, that's one thing I like about our group. Right, everybody brings something different to the group. I bring a more emotional aspect to things. Right, you bring a more technical, authoritarian type and I'm saying type of energy. It's not, you're more like the father figure. Ok, right, lady Alba she's. She's more like a mother figure. Right, she's also more like a father figure. She's a very strong woman.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:You know, other members of our group bring something different to the group and I think, using that, we we help with that dynamic which kind of helps keep that quote unquote chaos aspect you were talking about right in place, where it's not always the same thing over and over and over again.
Speaker 2:Right, but there's a little variety, little right different way of looking at things, to make it more. I mean, how many times can you listen to the story of Noah's Ark and not go? Okay, can we make this a little bit Right? So I think this happens less and more pagan in covens versus in churches and other religions. So we specifically sit here and tell people okay, our women or our high priestesses handle our spiritual nature when our guys handle our mundane or the religious aspect of religion.
Speaker 2:Separating up the two jobs so we get the full force of both. All right.
Speaker 1:To some extent.
Speaker 2:And I'm sorry with churches and stuff like that, where you only have one pastor. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, like growing up, we had our main minister, our main pastor, we had an associate minister and then we had deacons. At any time the pastor could pass off to the associate pastor and say hey, you want to do the sermon this week.
Speaker 2:I understand that, but I mean they're not assigned a specific. At no point does anybody, does the pastor ever look at a deacon and go okay, your responsibility is the spirituality of our church and nothing else.
Speaker 3:No, no, no.
Speaker 2:Where I'm sitting here saying for us pagans or for yeah, we have that diversity. We sit down, we tell the high priestesses this is your responsibility.
Speaker 1:This is your responsibility.
Speaker 2:This is the guy's responsibility, right, it is your job to bring in that spiritual aspect into our religion, right, that emotional connection that we don't have anywhere else. Right, by separating up them two jobs, we get more of a full force of the punch. Are you with me, right, jobs? We get more of a full force of the punch.
Speaker 2:Are you with me, right? I'm sorry. I've seen Lady Abba do many rituals, oh yeah, and trust me she can. I can't explain it, but I've seen her do the same rituals over and over again, and each time.
Speaker 1:Something different, something different Something emotional.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry, it's what they're good at. I'm not knocking or's what they're good at oh yeah. I'm not knocking or anything, don't get me wrong. Lady Oppa can run the business side quite easily.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah, if she had to.
Speaker 2:You know. But I'm not sitting there saying that I haven't tripped over to the spiritual side either as a priest.
Speaker 1:Well, no, I mean, we've all had to at some point, so but yeah, we do have that designation, that other organizations, other religions don't have that.
Speaker 2:we specifically have a person that represents just the spiritual nature of our religion.
Speaker 1:But now question All right, since paganism is not as big as some of the major religions, right? Is that what's holding us back, see, I don't know. Or is that what sets us apart, and maybe that's the reason why we are so small Comparatively?
Speaker 2:speaking, I think there's other reasons for that besides this, okay, of why in the world paganism is still so kind of small okay I think there's other things there. I'd to be quite honest with you. I I think it's more us yeah in general, it's the pagan community in general versus you know in other words, we're forcing it to stay.
Speaker 1:I did in the smaller numbers I think.
Speaker 2:I think a lot of people don't always. Unfortunately, you have a lot of people that will sit there and you could talk. You've done it before. We've gone to a gather. You talk to five different people. You get and you can hear them all say five different things and you're so confused by the end of it. You're right, what was the point of even showing up? Right, you know, you go to one class, they tell you one thing. You go to another class, they tell you something else so you think.
Speaker 2:You think it's not necessarily the fact that we've divided up the responsibilities, but it's that we I think we don't have any continuity in the quote-unquote community I think, think like certain religions done that in paganism we've dropped the ball on the religious side of this. Everybody just wants to do just the spiritual, Okay, and that's what I think drives most people away, because there are no consistencies, there's no guardrails, there's no, nothing like this. And you sit there and you listen to the podcast over and over again. Everybody seems to be flying by the seam of their pants.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean most of the ones that we see on YouTube or you know the big famous ones.
Speaker 2:Well, not even them, just some of the. You know the everyday, regular big famous ones.
Speaker 1:Well, not even them, just some of the. You know the everyday regular people who are putting stuff out there. Smaller, you know some of the smaller podcasts, not necessarily the bigger ones, but you know a lot of them. You're right, they're all doing the same thing.
Speaker 2:It's kind of like fly by night, fly by night and keep going. And you know night, fly by night and keep going. And you know our beliefs will change as soon as somebody comes in with a better idea. Right, you know? Because we're always sitting here looking at the door, looking for something better to come in okay all right.
Speaker 2:And again, I'm sorry, that's not how you, that's not how you run a religion no, it's not there are a lot of things in this world that are good for us, but when you take them to extremes, they're not.
Speaker 1:Extremes have their place, but only in small doses. Right and again my opinion I think we need those extremes.
Speaker 2:And I'm not saying we didn't need them, it's just living there is not a good thing for us.
Speaker 1:No, it's not For any of us. No.
Speaker 2:All right. Absolutely not. And I'm sorry, this is all I say on these other pagan in the pagan community at large is everybody is always the extreme, it's always something. And again, how are you going to follow a religion? But yet one lady sits there and tells you over and over again oh, I can't meditate and all my karma seems to go on my daughter and not me. Really, hey everybody else in the world.
Speaker 2:karma works this way, but yet you Well that's neither here nor there, because you and I I think this is part of our problem is everybody in the pagan community wants to be so special that they're driving people away. Yeah, all right, it's that guy that you know, and every time you talk to him, oh yeah, I jumped out of planes, I've done this, I've done everything that you've done. They've done better.
Speaker 1:I actually work with a guy who's like that, but you know what I'm talking about. I'm sorry, this is what I see mainly in the pagan community. You can tell me I'm wrong. Well, and and sad part is is, you know, even for those people, there's really no way to validate what they're saying. We just we have to take them at their word and keep going you know, but it does. It kind of gets irritating after a while and you're like, can we not just have a conversation?
Speaker 1:I mean why do we always have to one-up each other, right? I mean, you know?
Speaker 2:why? Why does everybody have to be joan of arc from a previous life, right?
Speaker 1:I don't get it there was only one Joan of Arc.
Speaker 2:But I think these are the things that are repelling people away from us.
Speaker 1:It could be. Yeah, it very well could be, all right.
Speaker 2:I mean, at the end of the day, Christianity really hasn't changed that much. Everybody knows the rules Pretty much. Yeah, All right, but in paganism, every time you turn around they're changing something for some reason whatsoever. Well, yeah, but in paganism, every time you turn around they're changing something for some reason whatsoever.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, well, and I think, that. That's part of what makes it appealing to some people is that it is so flexible, but I kind of think you don't need to be so flexible when it comes to religion, slash spirituality.
Speaker 2:I'm like you.
Speaker 1:You need those guardrails.
Speaker 2:You need a balance between the two.
Speaker 1:Right, you need a track that you can follow if you will like a train.
Speaker 2:I would even go as far as just a Vegas path in the woods. Okay, I mean, if we could at least get that far. But right now it's not even a path in the freaking woods. It's just a Vegas path in the freaking woods. It's just a vague-ish path in the woods. It's just everybody going off in 50,000 directions all at one time.
Speaker 1:Right, it's kind of like coming across an area that looks like it's been trodden.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:But you can't really tell.
Speaker 2:But you can't really tell. You know, we've all seen those dirt roads that have been grown up. Nobody's been down and you can barely see them anyway I'd like the paganism. I like paganism to at least have one of those okay, more than what we have now good luck with that herding cats.
Speaker 1:I know I mean it would be nice, though it would be nice I don't think I be nice, I don't think I'm like you. Well, maybe I'm not like you Because I think it needs to be a little more structured than that. Right, I really do.
Speaker 2:I mean I think there needs to be more structure there and natural.
Speaker 1:And, let's face it, most of the people who come to us, they're looking for structure.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:They've seen what's out there and they're like this is it's too much chaos, it's just, I need something that I can I forge a path into right.
Speaker 2:I need somewhere where I have at least some stepping stones to get where I want to go right so how can we?
Speaker 1:okay? So then, how can we?
Speaker 2:but yeah, what do you hear in the pagan community when you hear people pop up like that oh God forbid. No, no, no, how dare you, how dare you.
Speaker 1:Well, that's what I was going to say. How can we translate that into something more for the general public, more for the solitaries, more for the folks who you know, who don't want to be part of a coven?
Speaker 2:Right who don't want to be part of a coven Right. I mean, I'm sorry, but they have to make their own decisions. Then I'm sorry, right? So?
Speaker 1:there's really no way to make any structure for.
Speaker 2:For them. No, I mean if they're refusing. I'm sorry. If you refuse to take up the religious side of this, that's your problem, not mine. I can't make you.
Speaker 1:No, but I mean, I know some solitaries and they balance it quite well for themselves. Yeah, but when it comes to other people, it's almost like they can't translate that into something that they can pass on You've got to remember not everyone is self-motivated, Not everyone can self-guide or self-teach.
Speaker 2:I mean, there are people in the world that require a classroom. That's very true. Yeah, all right. I mean, they can't do self-study, so, yeah, those people need the organization. Now, for those solitaires and stuff, the only thing I start to have to ask them is are you sure you're getting everything you need? You think you are, you're acting like you are, and all this, but is it really Well, is there?
Speaker 1:another level there that you could reach if you actually took on a teacher and learned some things I was going to say, and that's not to say that you're going to get everything you need from a teacher or from a classroom or from, you know, being in a class with other students. You're still going to have to do some stuff on your own.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:But I think you've got those building blocks, that kind of help.
Speaker 2:Well, I think it helps when you have a priest that you're seeing, like either every full moon or something that's looking at you. Oh, how's your meditations going?
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Oh well, you know.
Speaker 1:Well, and even then, it's not a pushy thing, it's not like have you done your meditations lately?
Speaker 2:No, it's more like this How's it going, how's it going?
Speaker 1:How's your meditations going? Well, you know, and we've had some people come up. Well, I've hit this hurdle. Okay, what can I do to help you get past the hurdle Right? Let's talk about it. Let's talk about it.
Speaker 2:But, but yet I've seen a lot of people that have gotten to the point in the paganism where, even if you talk to them about teachers, they're ready to set their hair on fire. Oh, absolutely yeah, all right, that don't help. And just because you can't do something and you go to a teacher to try to help you figure it out doesn't mean it's a bad thing on you.
Speaker 1:So basically what it boils down to is we can can't structure us. If that's even a word that's not I just made it up. Hey, we can't. We can't put things into a structure for something that doesn't exist and for certain people that just doesn't exist. So we can't do that. Basically, what we can do is we can just talk to them and kind of help them along if they want it. Now, if they don't, we'll just sit and we'll talk about whatever bullshit I don't hear.
Speaker 2:Again, it's a difficult conversation because everybody wants a spirituality. I understand the drive for it, don't get me wrong, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's just at some point you've got to put a little organization in there.
Speaker 1:Well, see, okay, as far as that goes, and I guess for me it's been a little organization in there. Well see, okay, as far as that goes, and I guess for me it's been a little different because spirituality came easy to me. I always had a connection to spirit, Right, Whatever you want to call it. I always had a connection to it and it's always been phenomenal for me. What helped me balance that in my daily life was religion.
Speaker 2:It gave me a structure, by sitting there telling you hey, you can't just sit here all day in this spiritual bliss.
Speaker 1:Right, but it gave me stuff that I could do to express my, like I said earlier, to express my connectivity to spirit. I find comfort in that. Me personally, I find comfort in it. I find it very beautiful, I find it um relaxing in some ways, where I don't have to. It's like I don't have to do a whole lot of anything really.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:But I've got something that I can physically do to express how I feel, right, and I think that's a beautiful thing.
Speaker 2:All right. So, roughly saying, we've come to the conclusion you can have spirituality without religion and you can have religion without spirituality. But we still think our best bet is to have both yeah, if at have both yeah.
Speaker 1:If at all possible. Yeah, I think the balance.
Speaker 2:There is a whole lot more important. I think both aspects are important for humanity and our religious and spiritual growth.
Speaker 1:And it's going to be like a seesaw. It's not going to be 50-50 all the time.
Speaker 2:No, no, we understand. You can move that pivot point around anywhere you want to along that line, that's that.
Speaker 1:That's where, as you, as you put it, the chaos comes in right. That's keeping things interesting things you know a little bit more.
Speaker 2:It's going to teeter one way or the other other, and sometimes it's going to take over, sometimes it's not, sometimes everything does just seem very mechanical, but then the next time you go around, the tables turn slightly and you're just completely in spirituality, absolutely. I mean, I've been in a lot of rituals where that just suddenly seemed to have happened.
Speaker 1:My last ritual. Actually, I don't feel like I was completely there, so you know it was. Uh, it was quite interesting, it was, wasn't it um. So you, know, it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it happens, it does yeah, all right, anything else coffee coffee.
Speaker 1:Let's go get coffee, thanks. Thanks for listening. Join us next week for another episode. Pagan Coffee Talk is brought to you by Life Temple and Seminary. Please visit us at lifetempelseminaryorg for more information, as well as links to our social media Facebook, discord, twitter. Maze of stone and mire.
Speaker 3:Just hold my hand as we pass by a sea of blazing pyres. And so it is the end of our day. So walk with me till morning breaks, and so it is the end of our day. So walk with me till morning breaks, and so it is the end of our days. So walk with me till morning.
