Pagan Coffee Talk
We will discuss topics related to the Pagan community. All views are from a traditionalist's point of view. The conversations are unscripted (no preparations have been made ahead of time). A special thanks to Darkest Era for the use of their songs: Intro- The Morrigan, Exit - Poem to the Gael. Check them out at http://darkestera.net/.
Pagan Coffee Talk
Do Groups Betray Pagan Freedom or Enrich It?
A casual Reddit post about a Viking necklace sparked a provocative question that reaches to the heart of modern pagan identity: Are group practices fundamentally at odds with pagan beliefs?
We explore the delicate balance between personal autonomy and community practice, unpacking why we think some pagans view organized groups with suspicion while others find them essential to their spiritual journey. Drawing from years of experience running a temple, we share candid insights about how covens actually function—dispelling the myth that joining a group means surrendering your spiritual independence.
The conversation takes unexpected turns as we examine how safety concerns in meeting new pagans sometimes get misinterpreted as controlling behavior and how it can deepen tensions about authority and authenticity in pagan spaces. Could some anti-group sentiment actually stem from jealousy or intimidation about the challenges of forming communities?
Throughout the episode, we emphasize that paganism's beauty lies in its diversity—whether practiced alone or in groups, each approach offers unique benefits without invalidating the other. The religious path, as we note, is like finding the right pair of shoes—what matters is finding what fits you personally.
Want to continue this conversation? We're eager to hear perspectives from solitary practitioners! Reach out to info@pagancoffeetalk.com and share your thoughts on this fundamental question about the nature of pagan practice.
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Speaker 2:So you were trolling on.
Speaker 1:Yes, I was trolling on Reddit.
Speaker 2:And what did you discover on Reddit?
Speaker 1:Well, there was a lady who was at the bank, I think she said she was at the bank, yeah, and someone had a Viking symbol on her necklace and she kind of mentioned it and went through this whole conversation and she was trying to tell the lady, well, there's some groups that meet, and the lady got kind of defensive and she was like, well, that kind of defeats the purpose. I'm not going to have somebody telling me how to worship or how to do this or anything like that.
Speaker 2:Right, well, I believe you said her whole argument was is that groups were Were counter to pagan To pagan beliefs?
Speaker 1:Yes, are they?
Speaker 2:Well, I guess it depends on the tradition. I mean, most pagans I know are pretty much in groups.
Speaker 1:I mean even solitaries. I mean there's celebrations that happen throughout the year. I don't know how in other states.
Speaker 2:I don't think they actually consider that going to the gathers and where they're having the, but most of them hold rituals. Well, again, I don't think they consider themselves as part of that group. It's just like they're going to the local church, whatever.
Speaker 1:No, but it's still a group event.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so if group events are counter to pagan beliefs, why would you even go to that?
Speaker 2:Well, isn't this the same argument where you have certain Christians who do not celebrate Christmas like everybody else? They just do the church? They don't put up a tree, they don't.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, is this not the same thing?
Speaker 1:no one no, because I'm still back to. I guess I'm taking a little too literal right if you're telling me that group events, regardless of what it is, but the group event goes against core pagan beliefs. Why would you even go and gather with a group of pagans? For anything?
Speaker 2:You got me and again, if it's at the core of your beliefs, okay, everybody got to understand in the pagan community, the way we look at this is I have my tradition, yes, you have yours, yes, all right. At no point do we ever assume both traditions are exactly alike. Right, we sit here and we talk about Ravenwood. We sit here and we talk about South Carolina. Right, and some other places. All these different places you hear us talk about are different traditions. They don't believe the same way we do. No, they don't believe the same way we do. No, they don't. So this one person sitting there going well, that's their tradition, they're allowed to believe it. I'm not going to knock them, but knocking those who gather is just as bad. You with me.
Speaker 1:I am. I mean, I've never seen it one way or the other. Really, I don't think group events are core to our belief and I don't think they go against our core beliefs. If you want to go gather with a group of pagans, then by all means go gather with a group of pagans. Do whatever you want. To Go frolic in the woods, I don't care. It's your path, it's everybody else's path.
Speaker 2:Again, I've likened all this back to shoes. Religions like shoes. Everybody needs a pair. You just got to find the right pair that fits you. Just got to find the right religion that fits you. If you want to go off and be a Scientologist, I'm not going to stop you. That's not what I'm here for no by all means go for it. Go for it, because at no point am I, because here's my with all this, at no point the woman that said that that thinks that groups are actually against pagan practices.
Speaker 1:I'm never going to be able to convince her of anything else, nor would I try well, I mean, you probably could if she was willing, if she was willing to sit down and have a conversation about it, about this.
Speaker 2:I wouldn't mind sitting down and having a conversation. Why do you? Feel this way yeah, why do you feel?
Speaker 1:what? What makes you believe that that goes against your pagan beliefs?
Speaker 2:I mean because, even though we're part of groups and stuff like that, we still have these private moments ourselves.
Speaker 1:Right, we still have a degree of autonomy, right, right. And you know, even in our coven, we've never told anyone. This is the only way that you can believe.
Speaker 2:Well, it's almost like some of these people have it in their head that when you become part of a coven, you're part of a cult. You have to live and Right that.
Speaker 1:the coven dictates how you can believe what you can do what you can't do. Yeah, and that's not the way it works.
Speaker 2:You know, yes, we do dictate what information we give you at what speed. Okay, now again you're. You're getting the same information that the person before you did, and before that and before, so it's not like the information's changing, right? So again, you're still going through the same practice we all went through, absolutely yeah, alright, so it's not like we're getting one over on somebody. No, and I think that's where a lot of people start to think about this in groups is that they're coming in because they're starting on the bottom. Somehow somebody's getting something over on them.
Speaker 1:You know, that could be it. I mean, I can see that aspect of it.
Speaker 2:I mean, especially in today's society, everybody has that standalone syndrome. Yeah, I mean I don't know how to explain that the where in the world? I'm just so. And yes, you do have them people. They go out, they look for trouble, they look for problems.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, there's definitely those type of people.
Speaker 2:I mean I'll go ahead and say it yes, if you go out looking for, if you go out and assume everything's going to be homophobic, it is Right, you know, if you expect everything to be it is, you can find whatever it is you're quote unquote looking for anywhere.
Speaker 1:if you're looking for, it.
Speaker 2:I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm not going to sit here and say groups haven't us, groups haven't always made this easy for ourselves over the years.
Speaker 2:I mean I've I've gotten myself into a couple of sticky situations and didn't even mean to I think, well, I think that's pretty common though right, well, like um, a member of our temple was going through a rough patch oh many years ago and was talking to another group and they were. They were getting moral support and some other stuff with some stuff that she was going through absolutely no.
Speaker 1:No, and that's fine, because she knew those folks.
Speaker 2:She knew those folks and they invited her over. Yeah, she wasn't going to go to a place by herself, even though she asked everybody else in temple and everybody else was busy. She finally comes and asks she's like okay, you're the last person you want to go to. Will you go with this event? I really want to go meet them, but I don't want to go to a stranger's house alone, right?
Speaker 1:so I oh, that's right, because she found them on a form.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. And what happened afterwards? What was the thing that happened in the community after I did this?
Speaker 1:Oh, you can't go anywhere without your priest.
Speaker 2:You can't go anywhere without your priest. It's like no, that's not what happened. That's not what in the world happened, but yeah, that was what was going on and I'm sitting back going. What are y'all talking about, right? Oh, no, no, no. You go to Life Temple, no, no, no. Nights up your butt 24. No, I'm not. You meet strange people out on the internet. You do not go meet these people at their house by yourself.
Speaker 1:Well, no, do not go meet these people at their house by yourself. Well, no, you, you want some type of moral support, you want some type of safety net.
Speaker 2:You want I mean, you want somebody with I would think you would want somebody with you for crying out loud, I mean, and even during this time, this is when everybody was going no, no, you got to be careful with online, because people aren't always who they say they are right, and I still say that today my point here. This is what I'm talking about in the community. How in the world did me trying to do something nice for a member of temple suddenly become me being a dictator?
Speaker 1:well, I think. I think that goes back to the whole question of the day. It's, it's part of the group practice thing. It's. You know a lot of people like this one lady in the uh, in the reddit subreddit. She thinks that that's people telling her what she can and cannot do. And I understand, I mean, even we don't want people telling us what we can and can't do no it's that autonomy, it's that it's that right, it's, it's your faith, it's your practice.
Speaker 1:Whatever you want to call it, you should be able to do it however you want to.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's not like we threaten people or anything like that. Oh, absolutely not, you know. I mean, yes, have we've had to kick people out of temple? Yes, for making disturbances and other things and stuff like that for the cohesion of temple Right Cohesion and safety Of temple.
Speaker 1:We've had to make some safety decisions, you know but it's nothing necessarily against that individual.
Speaker 2:No, are you with what I'm saying? You know, you just don't seem to match up with us very well. You might want to go find somewhere else, right, it happens.
Speaker 1:Sure it does.
Speaker 2:I mean, it happens in churches all the time. That's why, in the world, some people hop around to different churches until they find something they like.
Speaker 1:Well, I don't know if it's quite the same thing. I don't know that I've ever heard of anybody actually getting kicked out of church.
Speaker 2:Well no, I've never heard anybody get kicked out of church. I do remember where in the world you know the community inside the church would start to snub certain people or whatever, because and then they would eventually leave the church and go somewhere Stuff like that happens, sure it does.
Speaker 1:Stuff like. That's always going to happen when you have groups of people together. Well and that's kind of a tribe mentality type thing where if you don't really fit in we're gonna make sure you don't stick around yeah, you know, I don't, I don't, I don't see.
Speaker 2:I've never seen covens quite do that.
Speaker 1:It's either it's either you're welcome or you're not, right, I mean yeah, either either you feel comfortable or you don't right well, and you know, and if you're not welcome, we don't beat around the bush about it you know, you know, we just, we just flat out tell you look you might want to go look somewhere else, because I don't think we're quite what you're looking for I have interviewed people before about coming to class and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:I don't think we're matching with what you want.
Speaker 1:Well, and you know and that's another thing Like we were talking about meeting people that you haven't met. When we meet with people, you know, a lot of times we'll get well, hey, can my husband or my wife or can my, you know, can my best friend come with me? Yeah, absolutely, we encourage that because you're meeting strange people that you've just talked to over the email, right, and even we like, when you go, I'll go with you or Lady Abba will go with you.
Speaker 2:Somebody goes with you, it's very rare when I go by myself, right, all right there just has to be no other choices.
Speaker 1:It's a safety issue, right.
Speaker 2:You know, because we even meet out in public. We normally meet at a coffee shop or somewhere like that. Oh, absolutely All right, because, again, it's easy to sit down and have a conversation with somebody there, especially if it's quiet, if it's one of them busy, noisy places.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a little more challenging.
Speaker 2:It's a little bit more challenging, but you know it's still a safety issue. But I mean, does that mean you suddenly don't trust them because we do this? I mean I'm still baffled over the whole entire thing of how in the world I became a dictator just because I went with. That still blows my mind.
Speaker 1:You do still talk about that quite often. I just it's a funny story. I mean, funny thing is, is some of those people? Quite often I just it's a funny story. I mean funny thing is, is some of those people you knew? I know I knew all of them, we, we. Okay, I didn't know you knew all of them, but I knew, I knew that we knew at least some of those folks.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And so. Personally that even that even surprised us even more that. Yeah, that they would say oh well, he's just a dictator, you can't go anywhere without him. I don't know.
Speaker 2:How do I keep on getting myself into these situations?
Speaker 1:I don't know. I think it's just. I think it's the people we interact with and how they, how they take or perceive what it is we say or do, or don't do, or, yeah, you know, I mean because we and we, that we can't control that.
Speaker 2:Well, again, like we, we, we believe it takes a witch to make a witch. All right, that you have to be initiated into, and you, we don't believe in this. But at no point am I going to sit there and tell someone who believes that they shouldn't. I just know I don't perceive you as a witch, but I'm not going to sit there and tear my arm out and make you feel bad because, well, you're not.
Speaker 1:Right, I mean, I don't know how to explain that. You know, if you want to use, that title.
Speaker 2:I can't stop you.
Speaker 1:I can't stop you.
Speaker 2:I have no authority, I have no power to stop you from. There's my point. But yet people want to fight over that.
Speaker 1:Well, again, it's something we don't have to agree on, right? We can agree to disagree on that and just keep going. You know, I know people who don't even want to use the word witch.
Speaker 2:They want to use Magus, or or something else, because of all the connotations behind Right.
Speaker 1:Well, well, and some people like like Jay Jay sees witch as female Right. He just he has that in his head and you know there's a lot of people that feel that way.
Speaker 2:Because of pop culture and the whole, because, I mean, we don't like the word warlock.
Speaker 1:Well, it could be any reason, but yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't like using the word warlock to describe a male witch, whatever, because it's an insult, right, but you come up to me and you tell me you're a warlock. Yeah, I'm probably going to sit there in my head going, all right, here we go again, uh-huh. But I'm not going to sit there and, badger, are you with me? I'm not going to set out to make this person feel bad because they want to call themselves that. Well, no, I mean that's their choice. I mean, again, we could sit down and have a conversation about it, why that's their choice. I mean, again, we could sit down and have a conversation about it, why I think it's this and why they think it.
Speaker 1:That's fine, yeah, but the sad part is, most of the time it's not going to go that way.
Speaker 2:No, it always becomes an argument. Instead, it always becomes. You must believe the way I believe.
Speaker 1:I'm back to it. Doesn't matter what you want to call yourself.
Speaker 2:I don't care, I don't care. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter. At the end of the day, in the middle of the night, with my cold dead, With your cold black heart.
Speaker 1:It doesn't matter, it doesn't matter. No, yeah, you know, the problem is. The problem I see with that is is that we, as humans, we like to put things in labels, we like to label everything, like to put things in boxes. Sometimes I just feel like, can we stop with all the labels seriously, can't you know? Well, I don't care what you call this, you, you might call it chamomile and I might call it calla lily.
Speaker 2:No, no no, I got over this a long time ago because at work I had to carry a phone with me everywhere I went and it only worked in the hospital. Yeah, so every so often it was housekeeping. This is you know and everybody would pronounce my name wrong, Even though I have the world's simplest name.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's just Joe, yeah, jay, jeff George, you know how many times I walked into my boss's office going. Apparently somebody named Jeff told this person to do this. This sounds exactly like what you would say, but that's because it was me. Well, why didn't you tell them your correct name? That's what they heard, that's what in the world I tried to get them to do, and they kept on calling me that. So I gave up. Right Doesn't hurt my feelings. Job got done, right.
Speaker 1:Does it really matter?
Speaker 2:Does it really matter If I'm not going to get upset over my name being pronounced wrong, right? Why? Because, trust me, I know I mispronounce people names all the freaking time.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, well, you know, and I travel for work, so I'm meeting new people all the time and I I kid you not, I worked at a place for nine months and it took me six months to get two ladies names right, because I always mixed them up. They never said a word to me.
Speaker 2:But yet, god forbid, I call somebody a witch or a warlock, or Something that they don't accept as a label. Yeah, and I've done killed their cat, I know.
Speaker 1:Again, it doesn't matter really. And when it comes down to it, does it affect your practice? Does it affect your belief? Does it affect your faith? If it doesn, your practice does it affect your belief? Does it affect your faith?
Speaker 2:no, I just if it doesn't, then it doesn't matter I just think it's funny behavior we have in the pagan community at large yeah, we sit there and try to tell everybody hey, you know what? No, you can believe whatever in the world, you won't, we won't bother you, or anything like that. And then that same person turns around a year later going no, no, you can't, you have to.
Speaker 1:Well, the funny thing is is I'm actually starting, especially in the Reddits and stuff that I follow, I'm starting to see a little less of that.
Speaker 2:Oh.
Speaker 1:Where people are finally coming around to. Okay, it's not my belief Whatever. So I'm starting to see that turn and that that kind of gives me a little bit of hope in all of this that one day we might be able to sit down and discuss our differences. Maybe that learn from each other.
Speaker 2:Maybe the community is maturing enough to go okay. Well, maybe I don't have to be so angry about I think so.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's not that I don't see it. There are still those times and those arguments that happen.
Speaker 2:But I hate to ask this though Could part of the problem be jealousy? Of what? Could some of these individuals actually just be jealous because somebody did put a group together and are actually doing this? Do you see what I'm saying? I mean, I guess it could did put a group together and are actually doing this, do you? See what I'm saying in this.
Speaker 1:I mean, I guess it could.
Speaker 2:And they feel like they couldn't. So you know, it's kind of like. You know, remember when you were a kid and you went to go try to do a new sport or something and you weren't good at it, you got mad at it and then all of a sudden you just started to just dog it every chance you got because you weren't good at it dogged every chance you got because you weren't good at it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm wondering if this is part of that problem we see out there in the community about these people not liking groups, I don't know.
Speaker 1:I mean, I don't know.
Speaker 2:I got to ask the question it could be.
Speaker 1:I mean honestly, when I sit down and think about it, could I start a group? No, there's no way I could. That's not in me. That's not something I enjoy being a part of this group.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but actually going out.
Speaker 1:And if this one didn't exist I would probably go find another one, but actually going out and starting, a group especially knowing how to run one and what goes into it. No, there's no way in hell. All the paperwork no there's no way in hell I'm doing that.
Speaker 2:Not from scratch. No, you know, I don't even know if this temple would be open if Lord Manhattan done all the work and we just inherited a lot of that.
Speaker 1:I look at it this way I'm trying to keep my blood pressure down.
Speaker 2:So I don't need that stress, Because when you go to that paperwork there's hoops upon hoops upon hoops. There are, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, just look at the hoops we had to go through to get our charter transferred to the state. I know, you know, to another state. So I mean well, not transferred.
Speaker 2:but recognized Right. I mean, it's just it's a lot, it is, it's a lot, it is, it's a lot. Could there be a moment of jealousy there? That could be the problem.
Speaker 1:I suppose so, but let's face it, lordman didn't do it by himself. If you have that feeling that you're jealous because somebody else started a group, get some folks together that have similar beliefs as you or same goals. Yeah.
Speaker 2:From my understanding he went he went, all these other groups. You hear us talk about lord man.
Speaker 1:When he was making ours he went around, talked to lady santana and lord lou and oh yeah and all these people and got more information on absolutely, and some of them helped him do the paperwork, so I mean he didn't do it by himself.
Speaker 2:You know, yes, it is a lot of hard work running a group.
Speaker 1:It is a pain trying to get people. Well, it can be.
Speaker 2:Trying to get people to show up for ritual, getting people to show up for classes, getting you know, just dealing with everybody's life cycles and the stuff that they have to do.
Speaker 1:Sure, Is it worth it though?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:I think so yes, it is Without hesitation. It's worth it, but, like I said, I couldn't start one.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:I'll help maintain it and I'll help this one grow all I can.
Speaker 2:But I'm not. I mean, at the end of the day, no matter how pissed I might get about things going on in Temple, as soon as one of them people call oh, I know. You're right there, I'm right there. There was the other day. You tried to call me and I was on the phone with one of them and you're like, hold on, let me.
Speaker 1:I know I kept calling and I kept calling and I was like what in the world is going on?
Speaker 2:He always answers the phone, yeah. The only time he doesn't is that, oh and then you sent me that text.
Speaker 1:I'm on the phone with I'm like, oh, okay, that explains it so it does happen, oh, absolutely and I don't mind, I mean it's I actually enjoy it.
Speaker 2:So, but it's nice to see a little bit more of the hostilities toward groups maybe starting to go away. I wish I would see a little bit more.
Speaker 1:It's going to take time. I mean, it's just that it's going to take time.
Speaker 2:But I do not see groups or not groups to being antithetical to paganism one way or the other.
Speaker 1:No, I don't think that argument. It's neither here nor there. Right, is it beneficial? Depends on who you talk to. Right, is it counteractive?
Speaker 2:Depends on who you talk to. Well, again, it's not like we don't have those personal moments throughout the day.
Speaker 1:Oh sure.
Speaker 2:Nobody's telling us what to do on that. So I mean most groups and I'm going to put this out there most groups. All we're saying is when we come together, this is the way we're going to worship, right, here's how we're going to cast circle, and we're all going to cast circle the same way. That way, we're all on the same. Now, if you're at home, you don't have to cast circle the way we do in temple. We're only doing this to keep everybody on the same page.
Speaker 1:Right it it. It allows for us, it allows people to come together and and be on the same ground as everybody else. Right, so that there's we're not we're not mingling different ways of doing something every single time. Right For us that works better. Right, there's groups out there that don't do that and it works for them More power to you. Right, I've been to some of those rituals. Some of them are really nice.
Speaker 2:I've heard their quarter call. Some of them have these beautiful two-page quarter calls.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but that doesn't work for us as a group.
Speaker 2:As a group no.
Speaker 1:Now, whatever people do on their own time, that has nothing to do with what we do as a group.
Speaker 2:No. So I'd like to see this a little bit more. You know, I'd like to have more of a conversation. Actually, if you are a solitaire and you want to have this conversation with me, right, maybe reach out info at pagancoffeetalkcom.
Speaker 1:send us an email.
Speaker 2:Send us an email. I mean I would like to debate because again we have this problem on the podcast me talking to other members of Temple we don't get the debate quite the way we want. But, yeah, reach out to us All. Right, I think I'm ready for some coffee, let's do it.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening. Join us next week for another episode. Pagan Coffee Talk is brought to you by Life Temple and Seminary. Please visit us at lifetempleseminaryorg for more information, as well as links to our social media Facebook, discord, twitter, youtube and Reddit.
Speaker 3:We travel down this trodden path, the maze of stone and mire. Just hold my hand as we pass by a sea of blazing pyres. I see your blazing pyres, and so it is the end of our day so walk with me till morning breaks. And so it is the end of our day so walk with me till morning breaks. Thank you.
