Pagan Coffee Talk
We will discuss topics related to the Pagan community. All views are from a traditionalist's point of view. The conversations are unscripted (no preparations have been made ahead of time). A special thanks to Darkest Era for the use of their songs: Intro- The Morrigan, Exit - Poem to the Gael. Check them out at http://darkestera.net/.
Pagan Coffee Talk
The Devil doesn't wear Prada—or appear in most Pagan traditions
Ever wondered why paganism gets mistakenly labeled as devil worship? The persistent myth that pagan traditions somehow exist in opposition to Christianity has deep historical roots that continue to cause misunderstanding today. What historians now recognize as economic persecution was disguised as religious righteousness.
Meanwhile, actual pagan beliefs center around animism—the concept that everything contains spirit or energy—and achieving balance with nature. This nuanced position is frequently misunderstood by Christians who equate rejection of Christ's divinity with opposition to Christianity itself.
Encouragingly, younger generations show increasing understanding that paganism stands on its own spiritual foundation rather than in opposition to any other religion, although misconceptions still persist.
How might your own spiritual journey be enriched by understanding the diverse ways humans connect with the divine? Listen now and share your thoughts!
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Speaker 2:All right, coffee refilled. Okay, today's topic. Why does everyone think or not everyone, but a lot of people, I guess why does everyone think that paganism or witchcraft, wicca is the antithesis, antithesis, yeah yeah, I love that word and antithesis opposite of christianity it's such a good question and this has been going on for a long time it is.
Speaker 4:I mean because even when we look at uh satanism, it doesn't always seem to be Yep.
Speaker 2:It is though.
Speaker 4:But it is.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm. So let's start by laying out the basics, right, all right. So the opposite of Christianity, right, right, we? Actually, even if you're not a Christian, you probably know more about this than you realize from pop culture and definitely from horror movies. Right, the opposite of christianity, okay, instead of worshiping the upper, force or the heavenly celestial right, right um deity, and all the things that go with it.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It is the underworld and it is the hellscape and obviously the devil who resides there, right, right. Instead of having a Messiah, a Christ, a son of God, we have an anti-Christ Right, the son of the we have an anti-Christ, the son of the devil, right, instead of having apostles, there are. This is what's wild. There are. The devil technically does have apostles. Yeah, there is a host of demons that act as his 12.
Speaker 4:And just to remind everybody, those demons used to be angels that got thrown out with him.
Speaker 2:They're all fallen angels. Exactly, the Ten Commandments become this sort of bastardized do whatever the heck you want, with no regard for anyone or anything. Interestingly though, the Ten Commandments are where it gets a little bit muddy, because technically, if we want to be technical, the Ten Commandments are not Christian, they're Judaic.
Speaker 4:Right yeah.
Speaker 2:So they kind of sort of don't count, but they're in there somewhere too. What else? There's all of the dogma, all of the rules of Christianity are basically yeah, invert them, right, that's it.
Speaker 4:That's it.
Speaker 2:It's an inversion of everything, and that is what is considered heresy, along with a bunch of other stuff. But you know, but that's the origin. That's the origin of the, the belief or the idea of a heretic right so okay but we're pagans, right, we're not pagans don't typically, and I'm going to say typically because I'm not going to speak for all, but I mean, I'm sure there's a few out there. Yeah right. Pagans don't typically believe in the devil.
Speaker 4:No.
Speaker 2:Because most pagans also don't necessarily believe in the Christian version of God. No, and they don't necessarily believe in the christian version of god.
Speaker 4:no, and they don't necessarily believe in the messiah either well, we don't necessarily believe in the whole heaven and hell thing either we have a variation or our own conception of it, but it's very different than that of christianity.
Speaker 2:Um, the thing I always find funny is is okay. So the Jesus question? Right, because so many pagans are often asked by family members, right, you know, do you still believe in Jesus? And you know, my answer, for many years, was always the same yes, I believe he was a very nice man. Yes, for many years was always the same. Yes, I believe he was a very nice man. Yes, do I believe he was the son of God in the way that Christianity portrays him?
Speaker 4:Not, really, I mean to get down to it we take more of like the Jewish view of Christ, or even when he was just a teacher. He was a person and yeah or even the Muslim right.
Speaker 2:He was a prophet of sorts, maybe. Maybe, yeah, but I don't see him as the way he is personified in Christianity. But yes, but I do think he was a very nice man and I think he had some lovely ideas and teachings.
Speaker 4:I mean, I'm not going to go around and bash the religion just because no, not at all. You know. I'm not going to go around and bash the religion just because you know I don't see where in the world that becomes helpful at all.
Speaker 2:Do I believe that you know really? I mean, I think, the ultimate question. I think, when a lot of Christians ask, do you?
Speaker 2:believe in Jesus really comes down to? Do you believe that Jesus died for our sins? Sins, no, I don't, because I don't believe in sin. I believe in guilt. I believe in emotion. So, yes, I mean, okay, good thing that you brought that up. Well, okay, I believe in guilt. Sure, I believe that sin is whatever in your heart you know to be wrong. Yes, is whatever in your heart you know to be wrong? Yes, if it makes you feel guilty and it plagues you, you do a bad tang, yeah, and you should say you're sorry and fiss it, yeah like that's it like I know how, how infantile that sounds, hence the voice.
Speaker 4:But yeah, um but it's exactly right right other christian ideals.
Speaker 2:I don't believe that we are born sinners. I don't believe that we are inherently. I don't believe that without the christian concept of rights, like baptism right, that I will be condemned to hell. Right or you will not be allowed into heaven because you haven't done these things. Yeah, I don't.
Speaker 4:None of these things resonate with me that I will be condemned to hell, right, or you will not be allowed into heaven because you haven't done these things. Yeah, I don't.
Speaker 2:None of these things resonate with me. So yeah, so most pagans believe in a concept of animism that goes way. I mean, we're talking, we're going back to cave people of the idea that everything has a spirit right, we interact with those spirits right, animate objects, inanimate objects, everything effectively has a piece of an energetic soul of some sort, and as do we, right and our job is to function within the natural world. We strive for balance. We look to understand ourselves and understand our inner most beliefs, desires, doctrines for each individual.
Speaker 4:Right.
Speaker 2:And we don't judge, we don't pass judgment just because another person's belief that something is right for them, if we think it's wrong for us, that's all there is to it. Cool, it's right for you, it's wrong for me. Proceed, yeah, life goes on, that's it.
Speaker 4:Like most pagans, I know we don't believe there's anything wrong with the world.
Speaker 2:No, I don't think the world needs fixing. I do think that man definitely has detrimental effects on the planet. But she will course correct. I trust in her to take care of it. And if that means wiping out a whole bunch of us whoopsie, I mean, I'm all right with that. You know, if I get swallowed up by the ocean, I'm good. I'm good, yeah, I'm. I'm perfectly okay with that.
Speaker 4:If nature wants to reclaim me, okay all right, this is not a force you can fight with.
Speaker 2:No, no, might as well, just accept it. Gosh, what else? Where did they get the idea? Where did it come from?
Speaker 4:Where did this come from when we just sat here and described how these are not?
Speaker 2:Yeah, all right, let's talk. History Is this more pop culture crap, no. So unfortunately, a lot of it comes from the fact that, all right, we got it, we got to go back a ways here. So a lot of it stems from, I believe, the 1500s. Up until about that time, the Christian church, the church at large, had not defined the devil.
Speaker 4:No.
Speaker 2:We didn't know what he looked like, we didn't know what his form was Right and in the 1500s or about that time is when the church basically decreed what the devil was, and effectively they took an image very similar to Baphomet.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:The goat man horned god-esque, yeah, pagan deity and said that's him. Right and deity and said that's him right. This also led to a situation where, during the witch trials, part of what the, the and I mean we're not going to get too far down this rabbit hole, but but a big, big part of persecuting witches and being able to define heresy was communion with the devil.
Speaker 4:Yes.
Speaker 2:That witches were, in whatever way, talking to him, working with him, working for him, communing with him, etc. Etc. Right, etc, etc, right. And that really started this notion, because the problem was it during the burning times and the inquisition, and right the, the persecution of witches as a whole. The thing that people need to remember is it had nothing to do with spirituality and it really had nothing to do with religion.
Speaker 2:It was about land and wealth yes so if you had a healer in town, uh, an herbalist, let's say and I mean we're using modern day terms to describe I mean they didn't call themselves herbalists back then but if you had somebody who was something of an herbalist and they had a farm where they grew their herbs and it was a decent amount of land and it was well cultivated and it was well taken care of, and people in the village went to this person when they needed a particular salve or a healing ointment or whatever it was. Their land was valuable, yes, okay. Well, there's nothing in the Bible that makes you condemnable because you made someone a salve Right or a tincture or an ointment, so they had to come up with something that linked these individuals to something.
Speaker 4:that was the antithesis of Christianity, which equaled heresy.
Speaker 2:And there it was. So that's the situation in a nutshell.
Speaker 4:And it prevailed All the way up to today, yes, where we still have people looking at us going. Well, y'all worship devils. What?
Speaker 2:I have stood in Marie Laveau's. Well, it's called Marie Laveau's. It's a shop in New Orleans on Bourbon Street. There's actually two locations. It is Marie Laveau's House of Voodoo. It is registered as a legal church. They have multiple properties and locations and it is a voodoo cultural center. Don't get me wrong. Yes, they make money. They sell a lot of stuff. They have to to be able to afford rent on Bourbon Street, but it is also an educational institution. Have been in this shop where there is a giant statue of Baphomet and a woman clearly looking at the uh, the, the poor kid working the counter that day and going why do y'all worship the devil? And you could literally see him not only roll his eyes, but his voice went completely monotone and he went ma'am, that is not the devil, that is the voodoo who do God, baphomet, baphomet, and he goes into this whole speech that he's given so many times.
Speaker 2:Right, you can see, like the life draining out of him that he's doing it yet again.
Speaker 4:Poor guy.
Speaker 2:Right, and this woman who was inebriated, by the way, because Bourbon Street in New Orleans literally just kept harping and was going. Well, I don't care what you say, that's the devil. But that brings about that question. According to who and how? How do you know? Or how how does a, let's say, regular christian right out in the world, how have they come to look at that picture of baphomet and go, that's the devil well see, when I asked this type of question when I was younger in church where where did all these other religions come from, if this is what in the world y'all claim?
Speaker 4:uh-huh? Well, and basically what they said was the devil apparently got a delorean, traveled back in time and recreated all these false religions before the real religion.
Speaker 2:Nuh-uh.
Speaker 4:That was the answer I was basically given. Somehow Satan traveled back in time and set all these up before.
Speaker 2:Okay, I need my own DeLorean so I can go back in time and beat the crap out of the youth pastor that fed you that line of horseshit. And again, that was horseshit Again even I knew this as a kid. I'm sitting here looking at him going what? Wow, wowie, wow. You just shocked the shit out of me with that one. Okay.
Speaker 4:This is what I was told as a kid. This is how all these other, this is how Hindu came about and how everything over in.
Speaker 3:Asia Ishkabible no no, Okay, he didn't say of course, of course my youth pastor did not say anything about the DeLorean.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I get you, but the idea that the devil could time travel doesn't, yeah, yeah, of course so, but I mean, yes, look, I think all modern pagans know and understand that the Christian church did a lot of Shady things. Modern pagans know and understand that the Christian church did a lot of shady things. Well, that, and they manipulated text and they manipulated doctrine and scriptures to again, in a way, incorporate a lot of non-Christian faiths in an effort to try to convert them. Yeah, and this still goes on. This is still a thing. This is missionaries. This is what they do.
Speaker 2:So, unfortunately, christianity has just had this very far reach. And that's there you go, I mean, and so they're perpetuating some of this. That's there you go, I mean, and so they're perpetuating some of this. I don't really know, though I find it interesting that, again, the picture of what they call the devil is so well known, is so widely understood, especially when nobody's there are no pamphlets anymore. No, devil is so well known, is so widely understood, especially when nobody's there's no pamphlets anymore, like there's no church that I have been to where they're like, and here's your pamphlet on the devil and this is what he looks like, and this is everything you need to know to avoid.
Speaker 2:No, not so I don't know. I don't know if it's pop culture, I don't know if it is zealot sects of Christianity that maybe are distributing something like that. You know, when we think about some of the revivalist Christian traditions that get kind of intense maybe. I don't know. But yeah, this, the, the idea that we are the opposite of, is absurd to most pagans. Yes, and yeah, it's still very much a belief. It's still I I would venture to say in most instances it's still the number one question yes that we are asked yeah, but we are seeing a shift.
Speaker 2:We're seeing a shift in that I now think it's the over 30s and the under 30s, over the age of 30 people's first. Yeah, we're still getting a lot of are y'all devil?
Speaker 4:yeah, are you devil worshipers?
Speaker 2:right under the age of 30. We're seeing more of the harry potter influence. Y'all. Y'all know how I feel about that, but yeah, we're seeing more of this slightly better understanding of the belief system right but a lot of it still isn't rooted in anything real right, it's just kind of still bits and pieces here, yeah and I mean certainly the under 30s.
Speaker 2:A lot of them have gone ahead and said well, you know, I do love harry potter and not like what's it based on. And then they go down the the rabbit hole of wicca and kind of form their own thoughts. But you know, but that's also where we get a lot of spiritualists now.
Speaker 4:Yes.
Speaker 2:In the younger generation that just don't really see a need for organized religion at all in any form, and they're just happy to effectively be modern hippies.
Speaker 2:yeah I ain't got a problem I don't either you know, do what you won't I just wish that those modern hippies would realize that there is personal growth and spiritual growth to be gained by having something of a structure and yeah, and by having a more formal education and also community. But I mean again, to each their own, it's, it's not up to me. I mean, if that's what you're happy with, then hey, okay, but, yeah, but. But there is. I think the younger generation for the most part does understand that we are not devil worshipers. It is going to get better. However, there are always going to be in people who are intensely raised in the christian church, and we'll always say it, we'll always think there's nothing we can do to change that no, you are always going to have people who go.
Speaker 2:That is witchcraft and that is of the devil right, and that's that's the exact phrasing and that's the end of the, that's the end of the subject, and this includes psychics, this includes divination of any kind, this includes, uh, any use of crystals, herbs look natural elements.
Speaker 4:I've seen some of them get up there.
Speaker 2:No yoga, no tai chi, not even as an exercise form, because that will cause worship well, I mean in a lot of that, like, look, I mean you know, christians have a lot of hang-ups about sex when the karma sutra became holy, yeah people's heads were about to pop off. What do you mean? The hindus have a book that basically teaches you how to have sex in every conceivable manner, and to this, to them, this is almost a religious text yes, I mean yeah, there's a little bit more to it than just that.
Speaker 2:There's a lot more to it, but that's the surface perception Of it, right? So again, devil, that can't possibly be, you know. And then you know what's interesting too is when you look at, like depictions, when you look at Hindu, I mean look All right, kali is terrifying, terrifying, right, khali is terrifying, terrifying. When you look at pictures of hindu gods who we, they are not. There's nothing, nothing remotely.
Speaker 4:Uh wait a minute. No, no, no you. You sit here and say this, but yet have you seen the AI generations where they put the descriptions of angels in the pictures that came back? Oh yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Angels are even bizarre hindu believers to be fascinating. I don't know, the american culture doesn't always have the best view of india and you know, I don't know why, but but I find them to be very strong people and my feeling is, if you can worship gods like kali and vishna and some yeah, you got some balls, because these gods are not the warm and fuzzy I mean even we have, you know, for as much as we have Hecate, we also have Diana. We have these versions. We have Aphrodite yeah, we have these versions of the goddess.
Speaker 2:They're very soft and squishy and feminine, and you know yeah, but I look at some of the Hindu gods and I'm like, oh boy, oh boy, you are. You are super scary. So I can only imagine if I'm a pagan saying that. I can only imagine a Christian looking at Kali and going, oh crap, that's a demon, you know, yeah, yeah. So you know, know, and it doesn't help. This is the other thing that I think does not help at all the concept that, wherever it comes from in the bible, the belief that God made man in his image, but then, throughout history and culture, each version of man has decided it must mean in the form that they are today. Hence why we have such a whitewashed view of jesus. Yeah, and you know, god must be this strapping gentleman with a big white beard and you know, like it's just it's yeah, yeah I have a hard time wrapping my head around it same same.
Speaker 2:I mean there's there's no doubt in my mind that when we look at the cradle of humanity and we look at things like Mesopotamia and we look at, you know, the Fertile Crescent and, historically, the places where man likely originated, we were brown.
Speaker 4:Well, we were a lot of colors.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but we were, you know, potential. We were much darker. We were not the caucasian picture of what everybody thinks and that is another component of the devil. The, the anglicized christian belief system, also vilified black people. True, and that's like right.
Speaker 4:So the very color of their skin, because I remember something to the effect of people were trying some Christians were trying to claim black people were the people that were descended from Cain.
Speaker 2:There's all kinds of and.
Speaker 2:I'm like what? There are all kinds of crazy theories and again, when you look at African tribes and you go back to the slave trade, you know, there it was like it was again let's take these gods, these deities, and convert and move the people away from them. It was another version of control and it was unification, but but yes, I mean it was another way to hold down black people from achieving I think it was more of a justification to do this practice, to go down here and get these specific people to make them specifically trade instead.
Speaker 4:Of your neighbors down the street.
Speaker 2:Right, probably both, I mean either way it wasn't good no.
Speaker 2:It wasn't good. No, it wasn't good. It's why I always get a personal giggle when I see a black Santa Claus you know, in the stores at. Christmas, and me personally. Yes, I think it's great, it gives me a giggle and I always see the other. You know the white people shop who, who like get very. You know black santa claus and I'm like shut up, like you're part of the problem, right there, like just just, yeah, just move on with it, keep right why can't there be a black santa?
Speaker 2:for god's sake it it's. It's important to give these cultures that have been so held down a sense of belonging and a sense of their own representation. But, yeah, I mean, there were so many ways that we look that in. In the, the hoodoo and voodoo religions, you have the barren and you have the different. Hoodoo represent the same thing. They have become, you know, variations upon the devil, right, you know, yeah, yeah, it's all garbage. And Hoodoo, ironically, hoodoo has more in common with Christianity than anything else Um just because of how much of it was lost to antiquity.
Speaker 4:Well, I mean how much? How much Catholicism is wrapped up in who? Do I mean voodoo?
Speaker 2:Um, it's the other way around. But yeah, because, because the, because what happened is again the the enslaved people had to fill in the gaps of their culture, so I think one of the ways that they did it was to use biblical concepts to help fill in the gaps. Yeah, and so there's a lot of people that will tell you that voodoo is just an offshoot of Christianity, yeah, which you know, it's kind of wild.
Speaker 4:You're ready for more coffee.
Speaker 2:I am.
Speaker 1:Let's do that. Thanks for listening. Join us next week for another episode. Pagan Coffee Talk is brought to you by Life Temple and Seminary.
Speaker 3:Please visit us at lifetempleseminaryorg for more information as well as links to our social media Facebook, discord, twitter, youtube and Reddit. Just hold my hand as we pass by a sea of blazing fires, and so it is the end of our day. So walk with me till morning breaks. And so it is the end of our day. So walk with me till morning breaks, morning.
