Pagan Coffee Talk
We will discuss topics related to the Pagan community. All views are from a traditionalist's point of view. The conversations are unscripted (no preparations have been made ahead of time). A special thanks to Darkest Era for the use of their songs: Intro- The Morrigan, Exit - Poem to the Gael. Check them out at http://darkestera.net/.
Pagan Coffee Talk
Horses, Zebras, and Magic
The age-old medical adage "don't look for zebras when you should be looking for horses" serves as the perfect metaphor for navigating the intersection of logical thinking and spiritual practice. When something goes bump in the night, is it really a ghost—or just those old pipes making noise again?
Our natural human tendency to center ourselves leads us to seek out the special, the magical, and the extraordinary. Yet this impulse often leads us down rabbit holes of catastrophizing and magical thinking when simpler explanations would suffice. A foundation problem becomes a house about to collapse, the misplaced keys become evidence of fairies, and the streak of bad luck transforms into a full-blown curse.
What's fascinating is how easily we can identify this pattern in others while remaining blind to it in ourselves. This is why we need "logic rocks"—trusted individuals who provide grounded perspectives. Responsible practitioners must navigate helping people without feeding potentially harmful beliefs, even when that means saying "I don't believe what you're experiencing is spiritual in nature."
Remember: you can always find a zebra if you're looking hard enough for one, but sometimes it's just a horse wearing stripes.
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Speaker 2:So there is a phrase that doctors use a lot when it comes to diagnosing a disease.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:And it's meant to help younger, newer, inexperienced doctors to keep themselves from going down, going down rabbit holes they probably should they probably shouldn't and wasting time, and the expression is don't look for zebras when you should be looking for horses, right? Looking for horses Right, and the zebra, of course in that case. Represents a rare disease, something very unique.
Speaker 3:That one in a million person gets.
Speaker 2:Yes, which in some ways is very exciting to a practitioner of medicine, but it's that reminder that you should look for the thing that's more common.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Right, and I mean this is the whole concept of Occam's razor.
Speaker 2:What's that?
Speaker 3:After everything's been eliminated, what remains has to be the truth, no matter how impossible it is.
Speaker 2:I like that. Okay, no matter how impractical it is once you've removed all other factors, right, that makes sense.
Speaker 3:Okay, that's the one you have to go with. I mean, which is more likely? That? An alien fell, a crashed or shipped in your backyard knocking down your tree, or there was a big windstorm last night well, but therein therein lies how we're gonna tie this in to craft all right look, everybody loves the magic, everybody wants to be harry potter and everybody wants to be special yes, that's what I mean. Everybody wants to be that harry potter.
Speaker 2:They want to be that special kid so we go looking for a lot of zebras, yes, or we have the potential to look for a lot of zebras and more often than not yeah, you're right we have to stop and say there's probably a horse amongst us.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:So this is also a lot of the logic that goes into debunking things that happen. Right, this is the process of ghost hunting, right?
Speaker 3:Is that noise really a noise, or is it the pipes?
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Speaker 3:You know, old houses have certain noises.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure, and we do. We get these sorts of things a lot. What's interesting is, though, because humans always tend to be the center of their own universe. Yeah, we're very easy to apply this principle to other people, but not ourselves. True, so true, to other people, but not ourselves True, so true.
Speaker 2:So you can look at somebody else and go, hey, don't go chasing a zebra, it's probably a horse. But then when it comes to you, you're like, oh no, it's got to be a zebra, it's got to be a zebra. No, no, no, probably not Same thing. So how do we?
Speaker 3:How do we convince the people that you're actually misplacing your items and you don't really have fairies running around in your house?
Speaker 2:that um? How do we? How do we convince?
Speaker 3:that person that well, I'm sorry, you just had to run a bad luck. Nobody actually put a curse on you right, there's well in the in.
Speaker 2:This is the problem, though. Sometimes, no matter how much evidence that you bring someone of the horse, right, you can stand it right there in front of them they still want to believe in the zebra. What no? I?
Speaker 3:think you sit there and you do all that and they still see a zebra you're sitting there going no, it's a horse, no it it's a zebra. I see a zebra. I see five lights Ouch.
Speaker 2:Touch. That was a Star Trek reference. For those of you who are not familiar, lord Knight and I are big fans. Captain Picard will always be our captain. Yes, and Next Generation holds a special place in our nerdy nerdy hearts. And, um, there is a fantastic episode, uh, that involves picard being captured, tortured and, ultimately, um, sticking to his guns and knowing that what he knows is correct. There are four lights. Four lights four nights.
Speaker 4:Look up the episode, it's fantastic.
Speaker 2:It's probably some of patrick stewart's best acting oh god, yeah, that was and it was amazing. It was amazing. Um, and yes, any star trek nerd you can look at and go. There are four lights and they know what you're talking about but no, we we have this problem.
Speaker 3:We do have people that call us up and they do this and we have to talk them off that edge.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Well, I also liken this to it's catastrophizing that's another word for it, right, right, People are very prone Not everybody, not everybody. Some people are very logical Good for you, you've got all the earth energy Congratulations but some people are catastrophizers. And when we look at that whole problem, like look, I have put myself on this chopping block many times. I had a foundation problem with my house, as you well know. Right, it's recently been repaired. But when it was first brought to my attention, when I first saw the signs that there was a problem, my tiny person brain went from oh God, there's a problem with the foundation to my house is collapsing and I'm gonna be homeless and everything I've worked for my whole life is disintegrating in front of me and it was because I went from zero to a hundred in an instant and and saw this pathway that, while possible, it's not probable.
Speaker 2:And so then, after talking to a couple of experts and consulting with people and getting a better understanding, perfectly fixable, expensive, but perfectly fixable. Not. Your house is going to collapse. End of the world, right? None of that I mean. Don't get me wrong.
Speaker 3:I understand in the moment, in the moment you get the flat tire, you're late for work the whole nine yard. I understand it in the moment. But to sit there and persist for weeks and months that this must be when it's just yeah bad luck, yeah, things happen I mean there's also just logical investigation.
Speaker 2:I keep a group of people around me me, you're one of them, uh, who I always say are my logic rocks. These are the people I can turn to when I'm not sure if I can trust my own thought process and I go, hey, let me run this by you. Do you think this is weird to do? Yeah, and have it put through the lens, right?
Speaker 2:right of someone who is very, very logical and see what spits out the other side. Because, again, while I can do this very well for other people, not necessarily for myself, so I keep my logic rocks close. I'm a water baby, I'm sorry, I know my faults, okay, okay, so that is, yeah, that's what I do, um, but likewise there is that that in in part of that you know process, it's knowing when to seek that out instead of jumping again to the worst case scenario. This is why the catholic church only performs an exorcism, like once a decade, I think, or something yeah, I mean the, the amount of evidence you have to show, the omens?
Speaker 2:yes, because they get inundated with, because everybody, everybody's like oh shit, the house shook, we need an exorcism, right. No, the Catholic Church would legitimately not do anything but exorcisms if that was the case.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know well, I mean not very familiar with them, but I mean how often do they come out just to bless the house?
Speaker 2:They don't. They don't. I mean that's up to the local diocese, kind of thing. But there is, and look, the vatican has investigators. This is their literal job to investigate. They're like, they're like the cia for the vatican, whose job it is to investigate potential possessions and needs for their intervention right and almost all of them are debunked.
Speaker 2:But again with us, with which, with craft people, just right, they go right to it like well, you, you must be able to do something about those, right? What? Your shitty air conditioning ducts that really need to be cleaned, which is why they're making that awful banging sound. Yeah I.
Speaker 3:You need to get the mold out of your walls and you need to do this stuff first. Yeah, there's.
Speaker 2:There's so so many things that we just have to use more of our faculties to better deduce and to not always believe that everything is caused by something that you were attacked or for some reason.
Speaker 3:I mean, do these things happen? Yeah, but I think they're more rare than we once upon a time.
Speaker 2:I mean come on every let's look at, you know, microscopic organisms. That's a great example. You know, we can't see it. No, so there's loads of illness and disease and things that would afflict people, and because there was no visible sign way back when it was a supernatural illness, right, I mean you.
Speaker 3:You have to remember they used to what was it called, uh, the japaning, where they would drill a hole into your head to let the demons escape, to get rid of the headache oh yeah, I mean that was part of yeah, I mean they would, they would, yes, yes, the bloodletting leeches, leeches.
Speaker 3:There were all kinds of wild practices and these were done and the doctor would the quote unquote doctor would say no, no, this is to get the demons out of you. Here, eat this hot sauce. This is to get those demons out. Yeah, yes, I mean, I know we joke about them, but these practices were done, mm-hmm, and believed wholeheartedly.
Speaker 2:It was very real. People were actually, in some instances, hurting themselves, doing more harm to themselves than not. There's so many, so much lore right, so many different mythical beings that have been blamed for so many things that have been debunked by science.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean?
Speaker 3:what is it? People with, oh, psychological problems, and remember, in Rome, people who had, oh, where you had the shakes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the seizures.
Speaker 3:Yep, yep, yep, yep. That was considered a sign of divine touching.
Speaker 2:There's so much. There's so much like that.
Speaker 3:And you're like what yeah?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's so many crazy things that have been attributed to deity or some other.
Speaker 3:You force right, I mean, but when you're sitting there and you're trying to talk to these people, that okay, maybe you're not possessed, maybe you need to go seek out a therapist and maybe be on some medication instead what I think is interesting is, again, it's kind of like one of the things that we teach at life temple is magic is a last resort.
Speaker 2:Yes, it is, after all, mundane. Options have been exhausted, right? So if somebody comes to us and says my child is possessed, okay, have you been to a doctor? It's literally, it's a checklist. It's like have you been to a pediatrician? Have you been to a neurologist? Have you been to a psychiatrist? Have, okay, has medication been used? Like all the different? Have you been to a therapist? You know there's so many other possibilities that have to come first, but more often than not, yes, you have an undiagnosed mental illness. In rare cases, extremely rare cases, you have a sociopath on your hands.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:But again, that can be diagnosed with much effort, but still it can be diagnosed, and I mean that's usually where the buck stops, pretty much, yeah. So yes, there's a lot of these sorts of things that we have to contend with, I think too culturally, when you meet people like oh gosh, is it Christian scientists who don't believe in medicine.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:They're challenging. They're challenging because, culturally, they've already been raised to believe that the body and the mind can self-heal and that divine intervention is ever present in our lives and that prayer is the answer in our lives and that prayer is the answer. So, yes, they go right to a spiritual conclusion every single time. That's very challenging. It's already ingrained in them. Yes, there's not much we can do, but this type of behavior is what leads people to not getting TB taken care of and all this other stuff that will.
Speaker 2:Well, the problem is, there's always somebody willing to either a take your, take someone's money.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:Or be entertained the idea.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think, as members of craft, we cannot be afraid to say I'm sorry, but I do not believe that what you are experiencing is of a spiritual nature, right, and I believe you need to take the following steps instead, and that's it. That's it if, if, in their mind, the witches wouldn't help them, so be it.
Speaker 3:I mean, it comes down to it. I mean, how long do you sit there and talk to them and try to convince them? Yeah, I mean we believe the will is the most strongest thing that we have.
Speaker 2:And if you don't cultivate it yeah, things are going to happen, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. It's challenging, for sure. And if you don't cultivate it, yeah, things are going to happen. It's challenging, for sure. It's hard to. It's also difficult to not pass judgment on these people, and that's what we're talking about in part of this, because it can be very easy to just pass a judgment, call somebody crazy and end the conversation. But what we're trying to do is.
Speaker 3:We're not supposed to do. Do that. We're supposed to be trying to get these people help. Yeah, yeah and you know, unfortunately, some of them just don't want, like you said, they don't want to listen, they want to believe, yeah, this more than what they, what they hear from us yeah because, yeah, when you sit there and you say no you, you're probably not cursed. But you really need to learn is how to meditate, and maybe go see a therapist.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 3:That's not what they want to hear.
Speaker 2:No, it's not, or you know, you have a chemical imbalance in your brain, not what people want to hear, but these are often the logical courses that need to take place. Yeah, so yeah, you can always find a zebra if you're looking for one.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Always.
Speaker 3:They're there.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's just a painted horse. They're not hard to find, yeah, but, but yeah, just remind yourself of this while you have more coffee.
Speaker 3:Yes, more coffee, thanks more coffee.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening. Join us next week for another episode. Pagan Coffee Talk is brought to you by Life Temple and Seminary. Please visit us at lifetempleseminaryorg for more information, as well as links to our social media Facebook, discord, twitter, youtube and Reddit.
Speaker 4:We travel down this trodden path, the maze of stone and mire. Just hold my hand as we pass by a sea of blazing pyres. And so it is the end of our day, so walk with me till morning breaks. And so it is the end of our day so walk with me till morning breaks.
