Pagan Coffee Talk
Pagan Coffee Talk is hosted and brought to you by Life Temple & Seminary, a traditional witchcraft coven in Charlotte North Carolina, with a long-standing initiatory tradition. We discuss a wide range of pagan, witch, occult, Crafte, magic, and Wiccan topics from a traditionalist point of view. We also explore running and operating a coven or group, plus the challenges, conduct, and responsibilities of the pagan clergy. New episodes come out weekly. Our show is entirely unscripted, and prone to occasional foul language, and moments of SPM (spontaneous pagan mayhem!) We hope you join us. If you would like to be a guest, we are always seeking authors, traditional heads, and group leaders to join us. If you have a topic suggestion, please let us know in the comments. Check the about section for links to our social media and website. A special thanks to Darkest Era for the use of their songs: The Morrigan, & Poem to the Gael. Check them out at http://darkestera.net/.
Pagan Coffee Talk
The Generational Shift in Modern Witchcraft
A profound shift is occurring within modern witchcraft communities as second-generation practitioners—those raised in pagan households—begin to increase in number. This generational evolution brings unique challenges to pagan education that few elders anticipated.
This generational divide complicates traditional teaching methods. We draw a compelling analogy: even an experienced driver needs to adjust when suddenly driving on the opposite side of the road—expertise in one context doesn't automatically transfer to another.
As third and fourth generations emerge, witchcraft communities must balance honoring inherited knowledge while ensuring the depth of understanding isn't diluted across generations. What changes will be necessary to maintain the richness of pagan traditions while accommodating those who've never known another spiritual path? Follow Pagan Coffee Talk as we explore these evolving dynamics reshaping modern witchcraft.
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Speaker 2:consider donating and following our socials when we were coming up in craft.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:We didn't meet a lot of second generation witches.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:We are first generation.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:Most of our elders were first generation.
Speaker 3:Right? Or would they be the first generation and us be the second, just be the third?
Speaker 2:no, because I'm talking about literally how people are raised all right if you came to the craft from some other religion or faith or belief and you have accepted craft, you're a first generation right. Neither of us was raised in craft okay now, for the first time historically, we got a whole lot of people who were second generation craft. They were raised in a pagan household. Yes, they were raised with pagan beliefs and ideals. They were not exposed to to another belief system yeah, they didn't convert.
Speaker 2:That is a fascinating topic, because their views I've I've learned many of their views are very, very different and their motives in craft are very, very different than a first generation's ever were. And I want to talk about what we think the advantages and some of the disadvantages are.
Speaker 3:What are some of their thoughts? What are they perceiving different than we are?
Speaker 2:Okay, so for instance, somebody raised second generation craft, divination, visualization, meditation. These are things they were raised with Right. This is common knowledge, which is interesting because that is one of the hardest things. Those concepts are very difficult for us to teach. First generation to learn and to teach.
Speaker 2:And to do practice yes, so when you have a second generation witch coming to a temple or you know a coven wanting a more formal education or wanting to learn a different tradition, that is an interesting thing, because they're already coming to the table going. I know that stuff, I know how to do that I. I've done that my whole life. Now what they so so? So those are some of the things we see right right they. Let's put it this way craft is not as mystifying to them no a lot of what craft teaches.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're like cool, I get it, that's you know. Again, they've been brought up with it. What they often lack is a perspective on other faiths and how those other beliefs interplay with our own. Okay, beliefs interplay with our own okay, and how it shapes and forms a first generation's viewpoint.
Speaker 3:So so in other words, they don't have that initial knee-jerk reaction where I'm sitting here doing something on the computer, got youtube running and someone talks about some religious thing even if it's not my religion, make a way, what, what, what?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there isn't the. So second generation craft, like I mean, like most second generation people in any faith. They don't question or feel the need to explore theology in quite the same way, because I'm going to be honest.
Speaker 3:I just sent you a video from a different show, but they talk about some Jewish stuff there. I was wanting your input on.
Speaker 2:We are fascinated by other religions. We are fascinated by theology. Not all second, sorry, I want to say second degree.
Speaker 4:It's not second degree, second generation.
Speaker 3:Not all of them have that pull, some do, but not all of them have that pull.
Speaker 2:Some do, but not all of them. Um, it's also where I think, teachings that are set up for first generation witches, which, again, is how most covens go about their studies. It's a lot of deprogramming. It's a lot of deprogramming. It's a lot of comparison. It's a lot of you may have been raised with this. This is how we do things, this is how it's different, and so that can be trivial for a second generation witch. However, a lot of second generation witches lack an understanding of the why they do it. Because, right, it's the repetition thing, it's it's oh well, we do this because this is what I was taught and this is the way it's done this is what.
Speaker 3:This is what this is.
Speaker 2:We always did this this is what we always did but okay, why do we do it? I don't know because it's what we did, right they don't have any kind of knowledge of the history or the origin right, so that can be tricky because we're having to go a little bit deeper with them, potentially on some of that material which under normal circumstances is an advanced degree yes so yeah.
Speaker 2:So it begs the question how much do we alter our teachings for a second generation, which and do we potentially need to isolate them from a class of first generations?
Speaker 3:well, my initial gut reaction would always be to base it upon the person. What in the world the person's going?
Speaker 2:and how they're developing. In the whole nine yards, of course, but we can't negate the fact that this person has the potential to come to the table with a lot more basic knowledge.
Speaker 3:Because we have to argue the whole entire thing. Am I going to lose this person because I have to do a two hour meditation class for everyone?
Speaker 2:else? Yes, exactly, and this person is just going to be sitting there. Yeah, I meditated for 45 minutes this morning.
Speaker 3:I'm good, I'm good.
Speaker 2:There it is, and I'm using this term second generation loosely in the sense that maybe it's not craft, but just any pagan or spiritualist belief outside of the big three you know.
Speaker 3:But this also brings up the question of what happens with that third generation. Are they going to lose even more of the wise?
Speaker 4:are they going to look yeah?
Speaker 3:I have to ask that if this process started in the second, what's going to be in the third?
Speaker 2:and the fourth. I mean, I hate to say it, but look at a lot of christians. When you ask them why, on many aspects of their fate, they don't have an answer well, I, I read.
Speaker 3:Speaking of that, I remember a girl that had the theory of I, if I write if Bible, I have to follow it because I know it. So if I don't read it when I go to heaven, I don't know what you? I didn't know Interesting. I can plead stupidity to get in. I can plead stupidity.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's interesting. Huh, that's one way to go about it. Don't know if I agree with that.
Speaker 3:But again, here's where in the world I think this logic or this pattern of behavior can lead to yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, it's also how we end up with fundamentalists, right, and that's a scary thought, because craft has never been one for fundamentalism. But it's easy to understand how that can happen, right? But we are seeing more and more and more of it, a lot of the people who come to a temple now seeking additional education or guidance. They were already largely raised with some very they're basically coming prepackaged first degrees.
Speaker 2:Kind of, and that's my point. So we we had a student very recently who was like this and we were sort of trying to get to the bottom of was. She raised in a family tradition is it just, you know, general paganism, like what is that background and how do we address this? Because to put her in a class with a bunch of neophytes who were former christians, whatever and to expect that this person is not going to automatically.
Speaker 2:A seem way more advanced right and b not become bored seem way more advanced right and b, not become bored.
Speaker 3:Oh it's tough. Well, and not piss off the other students or make the other students feel, because again we've had that. I've seen that problem before where I have one student that wants to excel and it makes the other students feel a little bit bad and you're kind of like I know, I know, and so it it of.
Speaker 2:I think it is something that we have to be better prepared for we so much of our lecture series like. When I look at it objectively, I realize that it is. It's based on the perspective of first generation, it's based under the guise of you have no prior knowledge of craft, or very, very little. You have no prior knowledge of craft, or very, very little.
Speaker 3:Is it going to? My question is to fix this problem or to help with this. Is it going to take a second generation to step up into a role like ours and go? I see your problem. I can help y'all out.
Speaker 2:Is it going to take that generation to see what I'm asking it? Maybe it also makes me wonder do we need to, as the clergy, create a sort of aptitude test whereby we can take someone like that and more or less immediately make them candidates for initiation? You know, maybe it's sort of like, well, let's see if you can pass the ged right, and if you do, then let's give you, uh, a couple of classes.
Speaker 2:They're very specific to this tradition so that you're clear on how it works, and then, if you'd like to be initiated, so be it, because I feel like that's really more of what that is well, I mean, we, we sort of do that already.
Speaker 3:If you come from another temple and your priestess and priest or recommending, we automatically sort of jump you over that first degree and but.
Speaker 2:But that's under the understanding that they're coming from a recognizable tradition and we can talk to their former priest or priestess. A family tradition may not have that kind of structure.
Speaker 3:Might not.
Speaker 2:You know, or somebody who was just loosely raised by what I'm going to call a hippie witch, Because because again, you, you, you run into that same problem that you saw in Karate Kid.
Speaker 3:Because because, again in Karate Kid, he, they asked him what belt he was at the beginning, at the end of it and his teacher was kind of like yeah, you're a black belt yeah yeah, we did, he didn't do it yeah, that's what I mean there's.
Speaker 2:There's such um a strange dichotomy there, and also we do have to be cautious, because I think there's a humility that is very different. First generation witches are more prone to coming to the table and going I don't know shit, I don't know what I'm doing, I don't know, I want to know right and I want to learn and I'm very eager. But they're willing to accept they don't really know anything and so their minds are very open to the process. A second generation might not be that open. A second generation often, I mean, they're feeling themselves. You know, there's a little bit of a sense of like I'm you know they got a little bit of swag to it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't want to call it entitlement, because I think that that's. You know that's not correct. But there's definitely a bit more arrogance, a bit more knowledge base. It's not that they're not open. They're very quick to say I already know that. Right. And you have to be careful too, because if you are a second generation, Right.
Speaker 2:You also have to acknowledge that, while you may know that or you may think you know, whatever that piece of information is, keep the open mind to recognize that the tradition you were raised in and the tradition you're currently standing in front of Could be two different things altogether. Could be differences. Yeah, and you have to be open to learning.
Speaker 3:And then again, let's don't forget there's a difference between a mystery being told to you at first degree and the same mystery being told to you at second degree.
Speaker 2:I also see it this way. It's one thing to go yeah, I know how to drive a car, I've been driving a car for 20 years and then you go somewhere where they drive on the opposite side of the road Guess what? You're going to have a learning curve. Yes, I know that you know how to drive. Yes, you can safely operate this motor vehicle.
Speaker 3:Don't think for a second that you're going to be able to go on autopilot like you're used to doing. And again, if you drive a stick or an automatic trying to drive the other car, I cannot tell you how many times I've reached for a freaking clutch.
Speaker 2:I cannot tell you how many times I've reached for a freaking clutch. Oh God, it takes. You got to be in the moment, right, you've got to be in the moment, and you have to be a little bit more mentally acute to the task at hand instead of, yeah, like I said, just being able to kind of go on autopilot and do it. So it's something to think about. This is going to become more and more common. We are going to start seeing third degree. We're going to third generation, not degree, stop it.
Speaker 3:We're going to say, and we're going to say fourth generation.
Speaker 2:Yes, and so on and so forth. And that's look, on one hand, it's really cool, yes, on the other hand, you know, I mean's that's what our founders hoped for, oh they prayed yes, yes, that's what craft in the turn of the century, you know, in the 1900s, that's what they wanted.
Speaker 3:But now we're the ones staring at that reality and going, oh shit, this is yeah, maybe, maybe we didn't think this way all the way through like we should have. We got to tweak it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's also. Sometimes I think you're going to have to package things for those particular students that forces them not forces, but guides them towards doing a bit more theological research in traditions they aren't familiar with so they have a basis of comparison, because it will be very difficult for that person to be an acting priest or a priestess when they're going to have a hard time relating to people who are?
Speaker 3:first generation and we will always have those yes we'll always have converts we're always going to have converts.
Speaker 2:It's going to happen. For sure, wow yeah Wild.
Speaker 3:Ready for some coffee?
Speaker 1:Yes, Thanks for listening. Join us next week for another episode. Pagan Coffee Talk is brought to you by Life Temple and Seminary. Please visit us at lifetempleseminaryorg for more information, as well as links to our social media Facebook, discord, twitter, youtube and Reddit.
Speaker 4:As we pass by a sea of blazing pyres, and so it is the end of our day. So walk with me till morning breaks, and so it is the end of our day. So walk with me till morning breaks, thank you.
