Pagan Coffee Talk
Pagan Coffee Talk is hosted and brought to you by Life Temple & Seminary, a traditional witchcraft coven in Charlotte North Carolina, with a long-standing initiatory tradition. We discuss a wide range of pagan, witch, occult, Crafte, magic, and Wiccan topics from a traditionalist point of view. We also explore running and operating a coven or group, plus the challenges, conduct, and responsibilities of the pagan clergy. New episodes come out weekly. Our show is entirely unscripted, and prone to occasional foul language, and moments of SPM (spontaneous pagan mayhem!) We hope you join us. If you would like to be a guest, we are always seeking authors, traditional heads, and group leaders to join us. If you have a topic suggestion, please let us know in the comments. Check the about section for links to our social media and website. A special thanks to Darkest Era for the use of their songs: The Morrigan, & Poem to the Gael. Check them out at http://darkestera.net/.
Pagan Coffee Talk
Perfect Love, Perfect Trust
Perfect love and perfect trust sound beautiful until you have to use them in a real circle with real people. We pull the veil back on what these ideals mean in practice - from the first nervous step into a new group to the split-second decision to ask for a door during ritual.
We talk through the difference between coven and circle, why some spaces demand deep energetic interdependence while others prioritize reverence and observation, and how to decide which role fits your level of trust. You’ll hear why self-trust comes first—trusting your instincts, your training, and your emotions without shame.
We also wade into devotional nuance: respecting powerful deities while declining relationships that don’t feel safe or aligned. Reverence doesn’t require intimacy, and discernment is not fear—it’s wisdom.
If you’re building community, stepping into new spaces, or reweaving trust after a rough experience, this conversation offers a grounded path forward. Subscribe, share with a practitioner who needs stronger boundaries, and leave a review with your best tip for asking—or granting—a clean door.
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SPEAKER_03:All right. Let's talk about another one of those terms which is like to throw around a whole bunch.
SPEAKER_04:Oh yeah? Really? Which one?
SPEAKER_03:Perfect love and perfect trust. Perfect love.
unknown:Perfect.
SPEAKER_03:What does it mean?
SPEAKER_04:Well, it means perfect love and perfect trust. What do you expect it to mean?
SPEAKER_03:Ha ha ha. What does it represent? How about that?
SPEAKER_04:So what would you consider perfect love?
SPEAKER_03:So perfect love is acceptance. It is accepting someone as they are, for who they are, for what they are, with no expectations and no ideas to the contrary.
SPEAKER_04:No expectations to change, no expectations to do or to expect.
SPEAKER_03:It is literally being able to respect and love a person as they are.
SPEAKER_04:I see it as the lack of fear to be yourself.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, well that's part of that, sure.
SPEAKER_04:That that you, that I, that perfect love to me is that I feel comfortable enough to be 100% myself inside that circle.
SPEAKER_03:Well, sure. Because if you are being accepted as you are, right, without fear, without judgment, without any other expectation, yes, you are free to be yourself.
SPEAKER_04:Well, I guess my question would be there is is that perfect love something we get from someone else or something we get from ourselves?
SPEAKER_03:Are you with me? I think when it comes to there's two different, there's two different viewpoints here. Right. There's the generality of perfect love and perfect trust, which should come from the self. It should come from within. The external component of perfect love and perfect trust is inside of circle. And inside of circle, it is validated by others. Outside of circle, it is validated in yourself. And that's where it gets tricky.
SPEAKER_04:Let's explain this. How do we get validation inside circle like this? Well, and I know a lot of people are probably sitting back going, uh but but but again, it is something you have to think about for a second.
SPEAKER_03:Absolutely. I mean, look, I think perfect love is our equivalent or our way of to use another tradition, Jesus loves you.
SPEAKER_04:Yes.
SPEAKER_03:Because the statement is so simple but so powerful, right? Jesus loves you. Jesus loves you no matter what. Jesus loves you as you are, Jesus loves you in whatever form you come in, whatever your circumstance, whatever your station, whatever color, all of it, all of it, all of it. And my favorite, one of my favorite memes is Jesus lining up a bunch of people and smacking them and saying, What part of I love everyone didn't you understand?
unknown:Right?
SPEAKER_03:Um, because it right, it had there's no exception. There's no he loves everybody but the gays, or he loves everybody but the no loves everybody. Okay, that is our equivalent. Perfect love is we accept all, we love all, we do not judge. Okay. The challenging part for most groups is, and this is where coven worship can be difficult, right? How do you apply that for someone you've just met? You don't know them. So the the way I've always seen this, and I mean again, I'm bringing in other philosophies, but it's just to illustrate, you know, the concept of namaste is basically my spirit acknowledges your spirit. Right. Right. I see you, I recognize you as a being in front of me, a being of light, a being of soul, a being of the divine.
SPEAKER_04:Of the divine in front of me and yes.
SPEAKER_03:So again, same thing. That's how I view perfect love. I may not know you, but it doesn't mean I can't love you, respect you. Yes.
SPEAKER_04:Right.
SPEAKER_03:Now, perfect trust.
SPEAKER_04:Let's flip that calling.
SPEAKER_03:So again, there's a within and a without. The within of perfect trust is knowing yourself, trusting your instincts, your skill, your ability, your mind, your emotions.
SPEAKER_04:To not be scared that someone might not like what you have to say.
SPEAKER_03:Also, to not stifle or try to control your own urges, beliefs, ideas as they manifest, to not judge yourself, right?
SPEAKER_05:Right.
SPEAKER_03:So many people fall into that trap of we judge ourselves, we judge our emotions, right? Oh, I'm angry right now. That's bad. I shouldn't be mad. Why? Who says? Be mad. If you're mad, be mad.
SPEAKER_04:There's nothing wrong with being mad.
SPEAKER_03:Acknowledge it. Trust yourself.
SPEAKER_04:No, no, no, no. Again, why being mad? There's nothing wrong with being mad. Now going over and beating the crap out of your coworker is a different thing.
SPEAKER_03:That is completely different. Exactly. Trusting your body and your mind to process and to experience things as it needs to is a big part of that.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:In magic, it's trusting your ability, trusting your knowledge base, trusting your instant, again, all of it. So it's trust in the self. In circle, this is where it gets tricky.
SPEAKER_04:Right.
SPEAKER_03:Perfect trust, ideally, from a Covenstead standpoint, is I trust the people in this circle so much that I can disclose my deepest, darkest fears, thoughts, concerns, whatever that may be, right, free of judgment. I can freely share my emotions with the group. And it's also trusting that everybody else here is on the same page, has the same agenda, has the same motives, and doesn't mean anyone else any harm. Right. Whoo, that's asking a lot. It it actually is. This is why so many covens are closed knit and guarded.
SPEAKER_04:Yes.
SPEAKER_03:Something that people mistake often is that there is a big difference between a coven and a circle.
SPEAKER_04:Right.
SPEAKER_03:A covenstead, by definition, is a group of people who grow spiritually, magically, intellectually together, and they do workings together. A circle is a group of people that need to observe. Right. It is religious observation and it is religious reverence. Yeah. It's not the same thing necessarily. Like I would venture to say, you know, and again, this is one of the reasons why Life Temple does not use the term coven. We are a circle.
SPEAKER_04:Right.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. I don't have to know that the person next to me has the exact same beliefs or ideas or motives as I do.
SPEAKER_04:No, we have enough ideas that we can be in this space together.
SPEAKER_03:Yes. But at the same time, I'm not working a route with you that is dependent upon your participation and your energies mingling so perfectly with mine in that moment.
SPEAKER_04:Right.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Trust is a hard one. There's also something to be said for we trust each other enough that we have each other's back. We trust the people in circle enough to know that if I catch my sleeve on fire, you're gonna put me out. Yes. Or better yet, you're gonna catch it before my sleeve goes up in flames. Right. You know, and help.
SPEAKER_04:And help.
SPEAKER_03:It is I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_04:Me having my hands grabbed or something in the middle of ritual does not surprise me as many times as I reach over candles.
SPEAKER_03:But it's concerning, right? Because this is why so many traditionalists don't like open circles. No, we find it very difficult to be able to have perfect trust when we don't know anybody.
SPEAKER_04:Right. And again, it's it's hard for us to sometimes let down our guard.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, for sure.
SPEAKER_04:That allows us to access greater things.
SPEAKER_03:Absolutely. Nine times out of ten, if I am in a visiting circle, not my own, I am not a participant, I am an observer. Right. Because to participate means that level of trust that I probably don't have. So instead, I would rather cut myself off from the spiritual and just maintain an observer's position.
SPEAKER_04:And and we're we're talking about us doing this with covens that we are close to and trust.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, trust, trust in so much that I am not gonna question what they're doing or why. Exactly. Yeah. And and I feel comfortable being in that space. But I mean, I've been to open circles where I'm like, I don't know what's going on, and I don't like this. I don't like this.
SPEAKER_04:And the minute why am I craving a cigarette?
SPEAKER_03:Uh yeah, the minute that thought crosses my mind of I don't like this, I go, Oh, I don't trust this. No, it's really what that means. Yes, because I'm distrusting of some of these practices or this situation. That's not good. No. Um, I don't often find myself in that position anymore because that was really as a a witchling and learning and experiencing different things.
SPEAKER_04:But is there a danger to trusting so much that you will walk into anyone's circle?
SPEAKER_03:Yes. Some people are just they bounce forward with that idea so wholly that they don't stop to think about whether or not they agree with what's going on until it's too late.
SPEAKER_05:Right.
SPEAKER_03:And then they're kind of in the middle of like, oh crap, well, I'm here, so I don't do I just go with the flow.
SPEAKER_04:Do I go with the flow? I mean, they they they they just did quarter calls and called the demons of where's the exit.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, exactly. Um, and you know, that's part of it is that the the concept that we live by should be one where, like you or I, for as long as we've been doing this, would have no problem at that point going, I need a door cut. Yeah. Uh I need I need to exit.
SPEAKER_04:Right. And and and again, I and no, no offense for what I'm about to say. I'm a third degree. You have two choices. Either you let me out or I'm doing it myself.
SPEAKER_03:Exactly. Exactly. Right. I was just gonna say that. It's a courtesy at that point to ask you to open the door.
SPEAKER_04:Right. Because if you don't, I will. And when I do it, you won't like it.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, you will not like it. Um versus, right? There's many people, again, they're newer, they don't have that kind of experience. They're too afraid to ask.
SPEAKER_04:Well, we even tell people when they're coming, even to the even though we've met with you and already told you it is the first day of ritual, we're gonna sit down and we're gonna go, hey, if at any time you feel uncomfortable, stop us and ask us to cut you a door and we will let you out.
SPEAKER_03:Because here's the thing that people misunderstand. When we give a person that option, it's not for you, it's for us. Because if you find yourself nervous, apprehensive, distrusting, unsure, you're affecting the rest of us. Thank you. Yeah, you're now influencing us, and we don't want it. We don't want it. Right. So it's so much easier to do that.
SPEAKER_04:It's also often and to make it even worse, most temples will sit there and tell you, there's no problem with this. We would prefer you to do this.
SPEAKER_03:Absolutely. It's also why we often say to people, if you've never been inside of circle, you have the option to just observe for the first one. If so, you know, feel free to take it. We're not gonna force you to come into circle. No, it's so much easier than the alternative. I remember being very nervous at some rituals because of uncertainty and a lack of knowledge and you know, all of that. I remember being at Lord Oswin's initiation as a first degree myself and being in a, you know, we were guests at a much larger group. And I remember just thinking to myself over and over and over again, you're just here to watch.
SPEAKER_04:Right.
SPEAKER_03:You're a witness, you're not doing anything, you don't have, you're not participating in any way. You're literally a courteous observer because it was so alien to me. So many things that they were doing were so alien to me because it wasn't my tradition. Um, yeah, I mean, I remember being like, oh, what's going on?
SPEAKER_04:Um, no, no, no, no, no, no. Let me put it you this way. I remember taking you to your first gather.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Oh my God. I could, if I could have peeled you away from me.
SPEAKER_03:Here's the thing. The gather, too. I mean, and that's what's funny. Again, this is where it's so interesting because that experience to me, it was so it was so eclectic. Yes, I found it funny. Yeah, I found it kind of as a as a traditionalist, I found it kind of bleh. I didn't like it. I didn't particularly respect it, which I know, I know it's not the best, but that's my opinion. That's that's again, you as a first degree, I didn't like the differences, I didn't find them appealing, but I could see why other people did. So I was just like, all right, fine. But being in the house of another traditional group and not wanting to offend or disrespect, or you know, I was like, I just wanted to make sure we bring it up.
SPEAKER_04:There, there is a slight difference, huge in that huge difference.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, because again, in one circumstance, like in a gatherer like that, there are no rules, there are no expectations, your conduct is not being scrutinized, you're plain clothed most of the time, nobody really cares. When you are a guest in the house of another group, you are expected to behave a certain way, and you know that you're being observed. You know that, yes, eyes are on you to some extent.
SPEAKER_04:You you you realize that after this, there are going to be people sitting there going, Hey, did you see what?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah. So yeah, you know, it's it's it's different. It's it is very different. But perfect love and perfect trust can also relate to our relationship with the gods.
SPEAKER_04:Yes.
SPEAKER_03:It's not just about our interaction and our interplay, it's how we view the divine. If you don't have perfect love and perfect trust for deity, what are you doing here?
SPEAKER_04:I mean, just to say it.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it's then this isn't for you.
SPEAKER_04:You you you're you're barking up the wrong trait here.
SPEAKER_03:Right, right. I mean, how can you not? This is also where and why, you know, again, we have a multitude of deities to choose from for aspects and to be connected to and with. But, you know, me personally, yeah, there's some deities I'm less trusting of than others, right? Um, I will never, ever call upon a trickster god. Sorry. I just don't trust you. Why would I?
SPEAKER_04:Would the trickster part of their yes be the be the main reason here that you might have an issue?
SPEAKER_03:I mean, that's what I'm saying. Like you you represent something that already is chaos, yes, and has me disrespecting you. So or or not disrespecting is the wrong word. I acknowledge your power, but I don't trust you.
SPEAKER_04:And and I tremble at that power, and I realize you have that, but it's the same way I would look at a grizzly bear, right?
SPEAKER_03:I respect your power, but I don't trust that you're not going to attack me. Yes. I do not trust that I can interact with you in a safe way. So why would I?
SPEAKER_04:Uh just saying.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. I'll be right back.
SPEAKER_04:Because I'm I'm I'm gonna be honest, for as southern as I am, I still cannot remember. Black, do you run, or is it brown, you run? Yeah, I know.
SPEAKER_03:I have to stop, drop, and roll. I don't know. Play dead, run, beep, whatever. Yeah. The other, you know, component is um, but there are many instances like that. There are many situations where an entity, a deity, we have to have trust, respect, love for that.
SPEAKER_04:And and and that trust has to be in oneself, not because again, if you can't trust yourself, how are you gonna trust anybody else?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:All right, let's go with RuPaul. If you can't love yourself, yeah, how are you gonna love anybody else? I'm just saying.
SPEAKER_03:There's there's a lot to it, and so many people see it solely as an external thing for the other people within the group. No, not necessarily. I mean, I can love you and not like you, right? I can I can love you and Okay, that's mainly directed at me. No, it's not directed at you, but but we have had moments for sure. But yeah, I can I can love you and not like you. I can um I can trust you, but also from afar.
SPEAKER_05:Right.
SPEAKER_03:You know, yeah. It so why would craft be any different?
SPEAKER_04:It it's not.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Because again, craft is supposed to be a reflection of life.
SPEAKER_03:It is. And you know, a great um, there's a great analogy here, I think, that's in our lecture series where we talk about like a child, you know, we look at a child as something of love and innocence and and right, and a great potential and right. But right give a two-year-old or a toddler the ability to use the stove and see what happens. Oh can you trust? No, no, no, so it's a two-year-old. What do you expect? So, I mean, those are the things we have to look at. Right. And we have to recognize, and and life is full of that. Um, there's so many experiences in life that tell us we have to build earn trust and other situations. No, you just don't even try. No. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:So you know what I do trust?
unknown:Coffee. Coffee.
SPEAKER_01:Thanks for listening. Join us next week for another episode. Peg and Coffee Talk is brought to you by Life Temple and Seminary. Please visit us at Life Temple Seminary.org for more information, as well as links to our social media: Facebook, Discord, Twitter, YouTube, and Reddit.
SPEAKER_00:We travel down this trodden path a maze of stone and mire. Just hold my hand as we pass by a sea of blazing fires, and so it is the end of our days, so walk with me till morning breaks, and so it is the end of our days, so walk with me till morning.
