Pagan Coffee Talk

Pagan Threat?

• Life Temple and Seminary • Season 5 • Episode 12

Share episode

Send us a text

Start with a bold claim, add a dash of panic, and mix in a grab bag of unrelated beliefs—what could go wrong? We dig into the arguments behind Pagan Threat and unpack why the “one big pagan conspiracy” collapses the moment you look at how diverse, decentralized, and non-proselytizing most pagan communities actually are. 

We talk about how the book blurs pagan practices with Eastern philosophies, then leaps to politics as if religion dictates party. We also get real about optics: social media algorithms boost the loudest stunts, which means curses and hexes trend while quiet blessings and ordinary devotion barely register. That skew alters feeds where the extreme becomes the supposed norm, and critics mistake the feed for the field.

The conversation widens to a practical ethic: defend your path without demeaning someone else’s. We call out Christian-bashing the same way we push back on anti-pagan rhetoric, and we ground our stance in pluralism and the First Amendment. Freedom of conscience isn’t a loophole at the end of a polemic—it’s the starting point for living together with difference. Will this latest panic endure? Probably not. But it’s a useful moment to reset, separate faith from party, and remember that most spiritual life happens off-camera, in seasonal rites, mutual support, and personal practice.

If this resonates, share the episode with a friend, subscribe for next week’s conversation, and leave a quick review so others can find the show. What misconception about your belief—or lack thereof—do you want the world to finally retire?

Join us on
Discord: https://discord.gg/MdcMwqUjPZ
Facebook: (7) Life Temple and Seminary | Facebook

SPEAKER_01:

Welcome to Pagan Coffee Talk. If you enjoy our content, please consider donating and following our socials. So there's a book going around, and I'm pretty sure everybody's heard of it by now. It's called Pagan Threat by uh Lucas Miles.

SPEAKER_02:

We're not the only one that's done a review of this book.

SPEAKER_01:

No, we're not. And uh we have both finally finished reading this book.

SPEAKER_02:

Trust me, the the eye strain from rolling my eyes have been enough.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, I know, right? It's like a workout for your eyes. We were listening to audio books too.

SPEAKER_02:

I I know. So this guy tries to stir up some of the old pagan things of back from the um pagan uh the satanic panic in the 80s to try to do some of this. So I we're gonna I I'd say we sort of ignore some of that stuff. It's just so mind-numbingly dumb, some of the stuff that they've kind of said about us.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

Would wouldn't you say? I mean, even back then it was kind of like, really, y'all, really?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I mean, back then there were there really wasn't a whole lot of information out there about the pagan path. And now there's so much more out there.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

Um still kind of surprises me that um that he kind of took those same talking points or a lot of the same talking points from the 80s and ran with it.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. That we're out there trying to, you know, corrupt the whole entire world and the whole nine yards. It just it's kind of weird. Just a little bit. All right. Well, because I mean, again, he taps into the same problem that I kept on seeing all the time as either we're this Illuminati big organization trying to take over the government and whatever or the world, or we're just tree hugging lunatics out in the woods.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, you know, and I'll admit, you know, there's there's probably a few of us in in government uh positions, but I don't think it's like a hostile takeover, or uh, you know, that we've infiltrated anything. And so it's actually kind of funny that he would uh think that at all.

SPEAKER_02:

So I think it's funny because I know nowhere in any of our religion does it say that we are supposed to take over the world, or we're not like certain other religions where we're supposed to be the only religion and the only correct way of doing things. It just that philosophy he seems to glaze over completely that we don't prophetize or seek out people.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, he never touched on that at all.

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, yeah, we've done advertisement for like the podcast and stuff like that, but that's only inside our own community, not to reach out to other people.

SPEAKER_01:

Pretty much. Well, it's uh I think um any of the like any of the Facebook ads we might have run, those kind of reach out to whoever. Um but I don't uh you know we haven't run a whole bunch of those, and I don't think that that was you know, that was like purpose, purposeful advertising. No, like targeting a certain group.

SPEAKER_02:

Group or anything. Well, again, been better if we were able to target a certain group, but again, we're still not trying to take over the world or anything like that. Matter of fact, you have to seek us. We don't go out and seek you.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

You you have to contact us. It's not like we're standing out on all the street corners going, have you spoke to your goddess lately?

SPEAKER_01:

Right. And we're certainly not looking through, you know, some type of phone book or whatever and just making random phone calls to people either.

SPEAKER_02:

So Right. You know. Again, we're not out there prophetizing. So no, we're not. What now the next strange thing he did was he kept on. Now, to us, we're all there's certain things that he talked about that are separate religions as far as we're concerned or beliefs. You know, uh we're not from Asia, we don't follow Buddhism or any of these other religions, but yet he keeps on wrapping those up into ours. And we don't always share common threads with all these religions.

SPEAKER_01:

No, I think I think that comes from uh the perspective that if it's not Christianity, then it's pagan.

SPEAKER_02:

Then it's all the same. Again, to them, it's all the same thing.

SPEAKER_01:

Right, it's all heathenry.

SPEAKER_02:

You know, I mean, that'd be me sitting there going, well, you know, you got you got you know, Christianity, uh, Muslims, and well, the Jews, and uh, they're all Amahammer religious, they're just all the same. So whatever. It's me doing the same thing.

SPEAKER_01:

So again, yeah, it is. And you can't realistically, you can't lump everybody into one category. Like that.

SPEAKER_02:

Right, you know, because uh trust me, I know a lot of Southern Baptists who would not get along with Catholics whatsoever.

SPEAKER_01:

Very true, very true. True.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm just saying, all right. And then they then they throw the atheists in on there on top, and I'm like, okay, that makes no sense because they have no belief whatsoever.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, it doesn't make sense to us, but to them, again, if you're not a Christian I know you're you're lumped into one category with everybody else.

SPEAKER_02:

But again, even the atheists think we're just as nutty as the damn Christians for believing in some of this stuff. Uh yeah. So uh come on, make it make sense. Could you done a little bit more research? You know. Yeah, I mean, he could have. I mean, uh, you know, I see this is where this whole pagan threat starts to fall apart for me. I'm like, really? Because there are times where they'll sit there and they'll go, oh, you're godless, and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, it we got gods, and the atheists don't believe in gods, and Buddhists believe in something like a god, but not a god. And right. I just what are you talking? You know, you want to sit there again, you're rolling your eyes. And then to make it all worse, he wants to attack certain political views. Yes. And associate it directly with us. You know, again, we we have this problem. Uh okay, so again, does that mean all Christians or Abrahamic religions are we're all conservative and only us pagans or liberals is sort of how he divides this up, and that don't make no sense because these are political ideologies.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. And even in well, even for him, I mean, it's just like you said, are really are all Christians conservatives? No, they're not. No, no, some are libertarians. Right. I know quite a few who are liberals, you know, left wingarians. Right.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. You know, and we have the same thing. There are some pagans that are conservative, there are some that are libertarian, and yes, there are some that are liberal and that far left wing, and yes, and we even have some that believe that socialism is the answer to everything.

SPEAKER_01:

You know, and that's their political belief.

SPEAKER_02:

We can't well beliefs, and I'm I'm not fussing about, I'm just meaning we have just as much of a gamut as they do on that.

SPEAKER_01:

So well, sure, you know, and I I I kind of get I don't know if I'd properly say offended, but I'm surprised that he's trying to lump it all into one category, or it seems like he is anyway.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. Well, I mean, he he he tends to, I'll, you know, again, over and over again, we're all the same, but it it does bother me because he sort of when you're reading the book, he sort of jumps all over the place. One minute he's talking about a pagan concept, then in the very next paragraph, he's talking about an Eastern philosophy. And I'm like, okay, these two have nothing to do with each other, but he's sort of bumping them together as if they do.

SPEAKER_01:

And I think that's just lack of knowledge, uh, a narrow-minded perspective, maybe. Um, and I'm not trying to name call or anything, I'm just trying to sort it out, find some reason behind it. I I don't know.

SPEAKER_02:

I I I don't either, so any was there anything specific about the in in the book that grabbed your attention?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I I mean it was it's it's a lot of the stuff that we've been talking about. I found it kind of ironic that he was trying to pull everybody together and say we need to stand on these unified standards and we need to quit bickering about individual differences about the way we believe. Among the Christians and allowing for those differences to take place, but he he took this staunch stance that anything outside of Christianity in its various forms is something that needs to be. I don't know if I'd say eradicated, I think that's a little too militant for what he was talking about, but pretty much the yeah, pretty much that, that it was it just yeah, it needs to be stamped out. Right.

SPEAKER_02:

Again, just like most of these religions do. You know, you know, I I hate to be this way. The Muslims basically do the same way. They believe they should be the only religion. You know, Christianities believe they should be the only that that they are right and you should follow that. You know, I which I find it funny because when me and you talk or we talk to other people, there are some Christian concepts we don't necessarily have a problem with.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

We're kind of like, okay, that's that's cool, that makes sense. You know, I can understand it. I mean, I don't don't agree with the whole entire Bible, but come on.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, overall, the Christian religion is uh it's a beautiful thing. It can be. It's you know, it's the people who have done things to it that make it not so beautiful.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I mean, again, I you know, I I can't sit there and say, you know, the pagan religions over in the past haven't done horrible things, but right. I can't sit there and say Christians didn't do horrible things either. I you know, religions have been around long enough we've all got a little bit of blood on our hands.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, that's exactly what I was gonna say. I think we've all done some things, well, not us particularly, but those in our past. Right. I I think they've all done a little something, something that was not ideal or wasn't morally right, or maybe.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, at the time it seemed more well at the time, and they thought it was morally right, and it, you know, the crusades, they thought that was morally right, you know. Uh, there's some instances of some of the stuff that the pagans did in the past, you know, how many civilizations? I mean, Rome. What all did Rome do? What all did pagan Rome do? I don't know.

SPEAKER_01:

Just saying. You know, all the invasions and taking of territories and the slaughtering of people.

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, you know, well, I mean, I I would say enslavement, but the whole world back then did slavery, so at some point or another. Yeah. So again, it's not a modern concept.

SPEAKER_01:

No, not at all.

SPEAKER_02:

Per se. But now don't get me wrong. Now there are some hot takes here. All right, that I do remember from the book and where Roe v. Way got overturned. And yes, there were a lot of videos of pagan people or pagan personalities out there telling people how to do abortion rituals and all this other stuff. And and yes, there were some out there cursing certain candid political candidates and all this, but on the other hand, I also remember seeing some doing it the other way around. Right. There were some bitches out there going, no, no, no, we need to protect this president, blah, blah, blah, or this candidate. We're gonna do spells to help and not harm.

SPEAKER_01:

Those didn't get publicized as much.

SPEAKER_02:

No, but it was funny how in the world they ignored those.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, it that goes back to let no one speak evil of your good. Right. Um to to some extent, or you know, no one let no one speak evil of your deeds, I think is a is a better interpretation at this point. Because when you throw stuff out there and oh, we're just gonna do this random ritual, and you know, we're gonna we're gonna hex this person or we're gonna hex that, and you're putting that stuff out there, you are giving those that impression. Well, you're giving that impression, but you're giving people like Mr. Miles ammunition.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, you are, because that's the only thing they're gonna see. That's the only thing they're gonna look at.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

Because when it kind when it comes to social media, we all sort of can fall into an echo chamber and oh absolutely all this other stuff, and only see what we want to see and not see a bigger, broader picture.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, and and and that's the other thing with social media, is once you start looking at something in particular, the algorithm picks up on that and starts showing you more of that type of material. So when you start seeing all this, you know, you know, abortion rituals and stuff like that, it's gonna stuff like that's gonna start popping up. So that's all you're gonna see.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. I mean, I because I trust me, I I've heard you get mad at me because I've sent you a video out of context of what you normally watch, and then you're like not gonna put up with it in my feed for the next three months.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. But yeah, I mean, it's it, I mean, that's just the way it happens. And again, you're giving them ammunition.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. So again, we we should put our best foot forward. I mean, it it's not like we're always seen in the best light to begin with.

SPEAKER_01:

No, no, there's uh all right.

SPEAKER_02:

And and and again, people out there doing that. I mean, that's that's kind of like that whole entire thing, which drives me up the wild, is either were the Illuminati taking over the world or we're tree huggers. I it just make it make sense.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, there's nothing in between. There's no there's no middle ground, right? There's no scale, it's either one or the other.

SPEAKER_02:

One or the other. And you know, I'm sorry, we did not create Halloween, we did not create all this stuff that they blame us for. We it's just there.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, so again, it still never makes any sense to me. But now, toward the end of the book, he did finally start to talk about the fact of the First Amendment.

SPEAKER_01:

Which I have to give him credit for. I just wish he'd done it sooner.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I wish he would have done it at the beginning of the book because he he puts it there on the end, basically saying, now we can't do nothing legally or anything to actually stop them but to be good soldiers of God and teach our kids not to do this stuff and try our best to I don't know how to put that, um, outlive us.

SPEAKER_01:

That's not a bad way to put it, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

You know, hoping that they have more Christian kids that won't and we'll just slowly die off or whatever, but you know, or the pagans have kids they'll convert us and right. You know, so I and I don't I kind of wonder when he got to that point. I was kind of like, are you trying to cover your own ass here? Did you get to the end of this book and go, you know, we do have some rather rambunctious people in our group sometimes. And I would hate to suddenly get accused of, well, the motivation for this hate crime against this church or this religion or this one of these pagan religion was my book. And going out, oh no, no, they're trying to destroy our country and our way of life, and they're all commies and blah blah. Huh?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So I mean, because uh it does seem like it was uh pretty much a uh a disclaimer of sorts, just so that it just so that he can say, well, it's in there. There I did not encourage this behavior, but yeah, you kinda did.

SPEAKER_02:

I kinda did. You know, you know, I really thought we were starting to get past this type of behavior in our society that people were like, okay, maybe this some of this paganism isn't as bad as we think it is. It's just the way they want to believe and live and let live, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Well, I think for the most part we are. But there's I mean, there's always gonna be extremists. There's always gonna be those those people that you know do see us as a threat. Which, you know, I hate to say it, we're the furthest thing from a threat because we we tolerate everybody's beliefs.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I mean, don't don't get me wrong, it it is it's not like I haven't heard some Christian bashing out there myself from the pagan community.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, that's true.

SPEAKER_02:

All right, so again, I mean, this is one of the reasons I kind of like rel against that because we don't need to. We don't have to.

SPEAKER_01:

No, I mean it and the way we we teach in our in our temple, our coven, is uh we don't tolerate that. No, it's not we we teach them that it's not something that we should be doing. Everybody is entitled to their own belief, right?

SPEAKER_02:

And their way of every path is valid.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. Their way of practicing their faith, all of that, that's their business.

SPEAKER_02:

Because at the end of the day, I mean, I don't I don't know, I can't speak for all pagans, they could speak for me. I I don't want to see Christianity disappear. I don't want to see any of these other religions disappear because I think we need religion. Right. I think we all need religion. Right.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, you've said it before, it's like a pair of shoes.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, you just gotta find the right pair. So, you know, you just gotta find the right religion for you. I don't I don't think everybody was born to necessarily be Christian or everybody was born to be Muslim, or you know, it just it doesn't all fit one nice neat package all the time.

SPEAKER_01:

All right. I'll take it a step further. I don't I don't think that everybody was meant to be spiritual.

SPEAKER_02:

No.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, and I think that's what that's what makes this world a a better place, is because we've got so many different ideas about how things work and you know, whether or not we're spiritual beings or anything else. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, well, I mean, I think our only complaint for a lot of these is we don't want you to, we're not forcing our religion or our beliefs on you, quit forcing yours on ours, on us.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02:

But yet we turn around and every time it it is over and over. Oh no, no, no, no, no, no. Y'all just haven't, we just need to preach a little bit harder. We just need No. What makes you at what point do we have to look at y'all going, we don't care?

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

You know, I I'm sorry, I've been to gathers and other things where we've had protesters and stuff. I don't don't talk to them. Let them do their thing and don't talk to them. And it doesn't, there's no skin off my nose.

SPEAKER_01:

No, of course not. Just let them do their thing, just like you said, and just ignore them. Keep going, go have your fun.

SPEAKER_02:

If you're if you are secure in your belief, what does it matter?

SPEAKER_01:

It really doesn't. You know when it boils when you boil it down to that, it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. It doesn't. So so why do it? Why because I don't want to sit there and go, okay, don't bash Christians because we're better than them or you you with me? That's not the stance here. It's just it's a different way of thinking. You don't want your religion bashed. Why should we bash anybody else's?

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02:

You know, I hate to be this way, let's use the Christians' own words. Treat others as you want to be treated.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

SPEAKER_02:

So again, what is this? You know, what why can't y'all hold this? We do. Well, I don't want to say all of paganism, but you know, I know some of us do.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

I still never understood that.

SPEAKER_01:

I you know, I don't know. It makes no sense to me either.

SPEAKER_02:

So is it this that we're that different or bizarre?

SPEAKER_01:

Could be.

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, people accuse us of that all the time, so I mean, I d don't get me wrong, we may have a number of people that are a little bit more off the beaten track, a little bit more alternative lifestyles than most. And that's fine. I but so what? I mean, these people need religion just like everybody else does.

SPEAKER_01:

Sure. I don't know. Anything else you um would let me let me ask you, do you think do you think this is uh just like a one-off?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, really, I think it is. Do you mean that it's pretty much it's popular now, but it's gonna dwindle away and well it became popular because Charlie Kirk wrote the Ford for it.

SPEAKER_01:

Very true.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. And again, and I've heard a couple of pagans do this, but Charlie Kirk did not write the book. He just wrote the Ford.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

Again, not completely happy about that, but his death caused it to become more popular. Right. All right, because it was one of the last Fords he wrote for a book, I think, before he was assassinated. So, but I really don't think it is. I think there's a whole lot bigger mess for the whole world to worry about or the whole country to worry about right now than this little pagans who can barely get ourselves organized on a you know daily basis. Right. I mean, you know, trying to trying to organize pagans to do anything like herding cats. I mean a lot of times it is. Yeah. You gotta have a lot of patience.

SPEAKER_01:

A lot of patience and some extra hands.

SPEAKER_02:

God, yes. And how in the world are we supposed to take over the world, but we can't barely organize rituals sometimes.

SPEAKER_01:

I get it, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I mean, come on. So now at the end, I I don't think this is gonna amount to too much. I think it's gonna, everybody's gonna read it, it's gonna sort of fade off into the ground. Matter of fact, I've mattered here lately, since we're doing this now, I've seen less and less people even talking about this book. Now, I did I did go back and read some of the comments um that some people have made, and there were some Christians that were sitting back going, this is garbage. This is not what these people do, and this is calling out some of the same stuff we do. We we have here interesting, you know, that that this should not be part of Christianity and we shouldn't be going down this path. This is just some people even accused him of just trying to do a uh money grab. Wow. On there, that it was just that's all this was was a big old flash in the pan to go, ooh, hey, I'm gonna scare everybody while this while everybody's already in an uproar.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, could have been. Could have been. I mean, and and uh the timing couldn't have been better for that.

SPEAKER_02:

So you know, well, I don't think that's what it is. I really believe this man, this pastor actually believes this is what's going on. You know, I I don't I don't think I I do not see this pastor ever coming on the podcast like ours or any of the others and actually debating it with us.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, no, I don't either.

SPEAKER_02:

You know, especially in a civil way or anything like that. I just I don't see that happening. Because apparently he couldn't even take enough time to realize how different and how various our traditions are and beliefs, how much variety there is. I yeah, how much variety we have in the pagan community in beliefs and belief systems, you know, that fall under that big I mean because the pagan term is a big umbrella.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, it is.

SPEAKER_02:

It's very big. Because the original definition that we we remember from the old old dictionaries was it was anybody who did not believe in the birth. Birth, death, and resurrection. And then the so don't get me wrong, it's changed over the years, but which now excludes everybody except for Christianity.

SPEAKER_01:

Pretty much, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So again, I also gotta ask what definition of pagan is he using because again, it is a very big umbrella term, and no, we don't all share the same beliefs and thoughts and no, and and I'll say this too.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, I'm kind of surprised with the amount of information that's out there regarding so many different uh variations of paganism that he didn't do more research. Or maybe he did and he just cons misconstrued all the information that he read.

SPEAKER_02:

Or I think he cherry-picked what he wanted.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, maybe.

SPEAKER_02:

You know, uh he he saw the he saw the inform again, just like you know, the people that went out there and did the curses to curse Trump and did not go look to see our wit which is going out there blessing Trump to or doing protective spells. And there were. But again, like you said, you didn't see about that.

SPEAKER_01:

So no, you didn't see that a whole lot.

SPEAKER_02:

You know, doing no searches on the internet, you know, depending on the way you word stuff, you'll get a certain you can get a certain answer that you won't. Absolutely. So it sort of saddens me to see that we're even that the somebody's even trying to bring this stuff back up.

SPEAKER_01:

I know, yeah, it's it's a sad situation, I think. And I I do wish we could sit down and have a conversation with this man and just change his mind, you know.

SPEAKER_02:

I doubt that will ever happen, but you know or somebody. And I'm not sure somebody. I I I might not be smart enough to do this, but you know, it'd be nice to see if somebody could debate him.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it would be nice. So you ready for some coffee? Yeah, let's get some more coffee. Thanks for listening. Join us next week for another episode. Pegan Coffee Talk is brought to you by Life Temple and Seminary. Please visit us at life templeseminary.org for more information, as well as links to our social media Facebook, Discord, Twitter, YouTube, and Reddit.

SPEAKER_00:

We travel down the stroden path, the maze of stone in my eye. Just hold my hand as we pass by a deal blazing piece. And so it is the end of my day's. So walk with me till morning breaks, and so it is the end of our day. So walk with me till morning.

Head Shot

Lady Alba

Host
Head Shot

Lady Keegan

Host
Head Shot

Lord Night

Host
Head Shot

Lord Oswyn

Host

Podcasts we love

Check out these other fine podcasts recommended by us, not an algorithm.