Recognizing Real Spiritual Experiences

In this episode of Pagan Coffee Talk, we explore one of the most common—and most confusing—questions in modern Pagan practice: How do you tell the difference between a genuine spiritual experience and a mental health event? Drawing from real‑world examples and decades of community experience, we break down what spiritual states actually feel like, why they’re often brief and profound, and how altered states of consciousness can arise naturally through meditation, ritual, fasting, or moments of intuitive clarity. 

We also discuss the red flags that may indicate something deeper is going on, such as ego‑inflation, long‑lasting episodes, or disruptions to daily functioning. The conversation emphasizes grounding, discernment, and the importance of having trusted people to talk to. We remind listeners, “your spirituality is supposed to reinforce your life… not encourage you to do the opposite.”

Finally, we offer guidance for clergy, leaders, and community members on how to support someone compassionately without overstepping boundaries. From knowing when to refer someone to a therapist to keeping resource lists on hand, this episode provides practical tools for navigating the intersection of spirituality and mental health with clarity, care, and responsibility.

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Transcript

Opening & Listener Support

What Counts As A Spiritual Experience

SPEAKER_01 0:16

Welcome to Take and Coffee Talk. If you enjoy our content, please consider donating and following our socials. I have a question for you. I have an answer for you. I hope so. What counts as a what counts as a spiritual experience?

SPEAKER_02 0:38

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 0:39

And how do how do we uh uh decipher that as to maybe it might be like mental health instead of spiritual?

SPEAKER_02 0:50

Well having a spiritual moment is a lot like porn. I know it when I see it.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:04

I mean, what else are you supposed to say? I mean, when you're being moved, you're being moved. I mean, that's all there is to it. I mean you you you just know it.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

I don't know how else to it's well some some of the I would say some extreme situations of like a spiritual experience would be like a trance state. Or maybe or just being ecstatic about something.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

Or or or what is that? That the um the three kids in I think it was Italy or somewhere like that experience where they had a divine vision of the Mother Mary and were given free prophecies or something like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:45

Right, right, right.

Ecstatic States And Altered Consciousness

SPEAKER_02 1:46

They were in this ecstatic state for a while while they were getting this, they were just sort of completely blitzed out of this world. I don't know how else to say that.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:59

So there are there are extreme times where it is that way to where the world it is so overwhelming that it just sort of shuts your body down.

SPEAKER_01 2:09

Right.

SPEAKER_02 2:09

And I think senses and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 2:11

Yeah, and then and there are times when you may not even get to that point, but you just have like a sudden insight or some type of uh intuitive clarity that just comes to you.

SPEAKER_02 2:26

Or you have those moments where things just click, they make sense in your head, but you still can't explain it to anybody.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

Right. That's that intuitive clarity.

SPEAKER_02 2:35

Yeah, that's just that click.

SPEAKER_01 2:37

Yeah, it just clicks, it's just it's just there, and you're like, it's like that light bulb goes off.

SPEAKER_02 2:42

Right. But to sit there and try to explain it to somebody, you'd be like, ah, bah, bah, bah, bah, bah.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

Just like we're trying to do now.

SPEAKER_02 2:49

Right. You know, the these states do happen. These are altered, these are nothing more than altered states of consciousness.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

Uh when we get down. Yeah. Well, I was gonna say, could it be could it be like a um a form of communication?

Drugs, Fasting, Meditation As Triggers

SPEAKER_02 3:11

Well, it is. There are parts of our brain that seem to be designed to receive signals from outside ourselves. Scientists to this day cannot explain why these exist. Right. All right, these are the pathways of communication with beings that are greater than ourselves. Okay. These states can be triggered through the use of certain uh drugs. Which we don't advocate, but which we don't advocate, but again, the state the those states that the drugs create can also be created without them. Those excited states, all right? Yes. Um going fasting for long periods of time seems to do the same type of process. That's when you're sitting there meditating a lot. You sort of are more easily able to disconnect from reality. Right. And have a more spiritual experience. Well, I mean, that's just like the the those who those whose tradition allows drugs and do drugs, they only do it to teach you what it feels like, and then they start training you how to do it without the drug. Right. Not advocating drugs or anything. I'm just saying these are still the same states. We can't achieve them without the drugs.

Spiritual Insight Or Mental Health Issue

SPEAKER_01 4:44

Well, we can't we can for sure. But I guess I guess my question on this is how how do we determine if it's an actual spiritual experience or if it's something caused by anxiety or bipolar disorder, or because a lot of times with mental health, a lot of these things can feel like a spiritual experience. It doesn't make them any less valid, but how do how do we determine that?

SPEAKER_02 5:20

We used to have a friend who had he had his psychological issues. And when he'd have his moments, and he flat out told me, he's like, when when I have these moments, yes, I think I'm Jesus Christ, and I like to get into the car and sing hymns and just drive. Right. Yes, to him, technically, this is this is an altered state of consciousness. I'm not saying it's a very good one, but again, I don't I don't believe those actual spiritual moments lean to feeding the ego, like people having a psychological break.

SPEAKER_01 6:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 6:01

It seems like the psychological breaks, the stories always feed into one's ego.

SPEAKER_01 6:07

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_02 6:09

Yeah, so if it's ego based, it's always about them. Right. It's always about basically about them. When you're having a more spiritual mind, it's less about your ego and more about understanding.

SPEAKER_01 6:21

Okay. So if you have a if you have a friend or family member or a coven member, right, and you're starting to see these patterns, you can kind of step in and say, hey, I think we need to talk.

Ego Tests And Duration Clues

SPEAKER_02 6:37

Well we need to talk. Well, then to make it even worse is these spiritual states, unless we're actually forcing them, okay, naturally just happen. They don't happen every day.

SPEAKER_01 6:50

No, they don't.

SPEAKER_02 6:52

And then to make it even to make it even to make it a little bit easier to to digest from one thing to another is once it's over, it's over. There's no lingering of the state, like there would be if you're having a psychotic break or something like that. Or you're bipolar and you're just having an episode. Those tend to last longer and then there's repercussions afterwards. Because again, if you're doing those swings psychologically, all right, and you're you're on your little high. Well, what comes very next is the real low because it's got to snap back. And spiritual excited states is you don't have the consequence afterwards. Are you with what I'm saying there? So you're not gonna have a depression afterwards. You may have a longing to be back in that state, but not but it's not, oh, I'm depressed because I'm not, it's just you're still you.

SPEAKER_01 7:48

So, all right. So basically we need we need to a couple of things we need to look at is the situation causing harm. Right. Or does it make me want to cause harm? Right. Does it last longer than it should? Like is it only there while I'm active? Is it only is it does it go on into times when I'm sitting, when I'm grounded? Right. Things like this. And can I discuss it with somebody? Do I have somebody I can trust?

SPEAKER_02 8:20

Yeah. I mean, and and again, if you can't, if you don't feel like you can really trust anybody inside of temple, go seek therapy. Right. Go talk to a therapist. Talk to someone. Now again, when you're talking to someone about these things, be careful. Don't let them push you farther into a delusion. Oh Lord, no.

SPEAKER_01 8:45

If you even think that's happening, get out.

SPEAKER_02 8:48

People want to believe that there's fantastical things going on when there's basic answers. And you I'm I'm sorry, you don't want to talk to somebody who's just going to push you farther down this delusion. Right. If this is what's if you're having a psychotic break or if you're having a bipolar episode, the last thing you need is somebody encouraging you.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

Right.

SPEAKER_02 9:11

No, you need somebody who's gonna encourage you to do the this beh this bad behavior instead of encouraging to go seek help.

Safety, Therapy, And Grounding

SPEAKER_01 9:18

I was gonna say, yeah, you need somebody who's gonna try to try to keep you grounded and who cares. And yeah, is gonna encourage you to get help. You need you need someone who makes you feel safe. Right.

SPEAKER_02 9:32

You know, I mean don't don't sit there and believe the first person that goes, oh no, you must be possessed, or you you have a curse on stop, just stop.

SPEAKER_01 9:40

Second opinion next.

SPEAKER_02 9:44

If that's where the first person you talk to goes to, yeah, just just stop where in the world you're going to go find somebody else.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

Yeah, and but and by all means, don't ever think that just because you need help for you know whatever mental process is going on, that is not a failure of your spirituality at all. No, it just means you need some help. Right, and we have so don't don't ever think that.

SPEAKER_02 10:14

Don't no, it has nothing to do with your spirituality, you're not doing anything wrong, it just it happened. Things like this happen.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

And when you're seeking help, you don't need anybody, you don't need anybody like you know like you were just saying, who's gonna encourage you to continue on that. You don't need anybody who's gonna make you feel afraid.

SPEAKER_02 10:35

No.

SPEAKER_01 10:36

If they encourage you to do anything that disrupts your daily functioning, um, encourage you to harm yourself or anything like that, isolation, stay away from these folks.

SPEAKER_02 10:48

I'm not gonna sit here and say these folks are doing anything on purpose. It's not like they're sitting cackling behind the corner, go, ha ha ha ha ha ha. I believe a lot of them are very well-meaning people, and they really are trying to help. Unfortunately, the majority of the times, these are the same people that will sit there and go, Oh, you're cursed. It was a past life trauma, instead of dealing with what's going on right now. Right. All right. I'm not saying these things don't exist, but I don't ever see where in the world these things cause a psychological break.

SPEAKER_01 11:24

No.

SPEAKER_02 11:25

And of themselves.

SPEAKER_01 11:26

No, I've I mean, me personally, I've never seen it do that.

Avoid Fear Tactics And Curses

SPEAKER_02 11:31

So I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but but I again I've I've I've heard these are the same. I hear them in Discords, I see them on Reddit every so often, and there's that there's always that one person. Are you sure you weren't cursed? Are you sure it wasn't a backlash of a spell? Oh, yeah, I see that all the time. Right. And instead of, hey, maybe you should just sit down and meditate instead and figure out what is bothering you directly. Because again, how are you gonna fix the problem if you don't know what the root of the problem is? Just by sitting there saying that, you know, well, somebody's cursed, or it was a black uh backlash from a spell, or it was a karmic thing from a previous life. Right. What do you do with that? I mean, seriously.

SPEAKER_01 12:20

No, I mean, you gotta remember your your spirituality is supposed to reinforce your life, your decisions, you're supposed to help you make better decisions.

SPEAKER_02 12:35

You know, I know a lot of people, I'm not, I know a lot of people aren't gonna like this, but I'm gonna say it again. When your spiritual life is in order, every air everything else seems to fall into place. If your life's already chaotic and you're starting to do this and you're starting to try to get your spiritual life, it will take time.

SPEAKER_01 12:53

Yes, it will. Well, even if it's not you know terribly chaotic, it's still gonna take time.

SPEAKER_02 13:00

It's still gonna take time, it takes time and patience. Your life did not get this way overnight, it's not gonna be fixed overnight.

SPEAKER_01 13:09

No. I mean, are there are there things in your spiritual practice that can help you along that way? Absolutely. Just about everything. God, yes. Ritual can help keep you grounded, meditation can help you regulate your uh your emotions. Um reach out, find you know, find folks in your local area. I know a lot of places they have coffee meets. They just go and hang out and chit-chat.

SPEAKER_02 13:42

Hey, I just look look, having a friend that once a month or once a week or once every other week you can go and have coffee with and just sit down and chat is the best thing when you can do it.

Practice, Patience, And Community Support

SPEAKER_01 13:53

Absolutely, absolutely, and all of this can all of this can complement whatever mental health care you're getting, whether it be you know a therapist, psychotherapy, um, medications, all of this can help complement all that.

SPEAKER_02 14:11

Right. And the only other thing I'm gonna sit there and tell you is when you're dealing with your therapist or your counselor or whatever you have there, tell them the whole truth. Yes, tell them everything. Don't hold back, don't just glaze over something because you don't think it's tell them everything that's going on, even the bad stuff. Yep, even the stuff you don't want to tell them. You got to get it out. Sometimes just saying things out loud helps you figure out what to do next. Right. Just sitting there telling someone, here, here's my here's my problem, X, Y, and Z. And by doing so, it can make the problem seem less as daunting as it can, or you you might suddenly get the solution. Right. It these things happen. So again, be as honest as you can. If you if you don't think you can trust that person sitting beside you that you're having coffee with, if you don't think you can sit there and trust your therapist, then find a different therapist you can.

SPEAKER_01 15:11

Absolutely, because there are, I mean, there are those people. I mean, we just talked about it. There are there are those people they're gonna be, oh, you're so gifted.

SPEAKER_02 15:21

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:22

And then you've got people who will just say, Well, you need more shadow work. Well, that may be true, but there's something else going on.

SPEAKER_02 15:32

Right.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

Every experience is not a divine experience.

SPEAKER_02 15:35

No, it's not, but again, trying to separate the two up is a whole lot, I think it's a whole lot easier than what a lot of people think. Those spiritual moments, they're brief, but they're profound at the same time. Right. And again, they're short-lived. There, there's the trick. This is short-lived moments. These do not last for days and weeks on end, or even hours on end. I don't think mentally or spiritually or physically, our bodies can handle that state for a very long time. I think it's a little too much information for us.

SPEAKER_01 16:14

Right. It's kind of like uh information overload.

SPEAKER_02 16:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:20

So again, you stay in that state too long. I sort of feel like your brains might turn into liquid and roll out your nose or something.

SPEAKER_01 16:27

Yeah, it does kind of feel that way after a while. It does. If it stays too long.

SPEAKER_02 16:35

Don't get me wrong. Are these alternate states fun and enjoyable at times? Yes. But you can't become addicted to them.

SPEAKER_01 16:45

No. And if you are, then you know, there's probably something deeper that needs to be dealt with.

Be Honest With Therapists

SPEAKER_02 16:52

Going on there. What the escapism of reality. Right. So the fact is, is that we are physical beings. We do have to deal with this reality at some point. Right. We all have to eat, we all have to go to the bathroom, we all have to breathe. So at the end of the day, we still have to be in touch here. We can't just stay completely over there all the time.

SPEAKER_01 17:16

Right. And that's important for clergy and leaders in the community as well, because again, this is something that you might be asked to deal with or be confronted with at some point in your spiritual career as a leader.

SPEAKER_02 17:33

Oh, I can guarantee it.

SPEAKER_01 17:35

And, you know, it takes a big responsibility, and you need to you need to understand your limitations. Right. If you're not trained for something specifically, assist this person or these people in, you know, how to obtain help. But don't try to overstep your role and try to help somebody when you don't know what's going on.

SPEAKER_02 18:00

Look, people might not like this or not, but everybody. I don't care if you're a neophyte or a solitaire or anything like that. Take five minutes, go do a search out online of people who are offering therapy in your area, enough to where they're like maybe doing a sliding scale for that or other people. Get that list. I'm sure if you called the local hospital and asked them, they would more than willing to give you a list of references and information as needed. You're gonna need it. Right. Because again, having that information going, hey, here down the road, here's where they're doing an AA. Over here, they're doing, you know, the stuff for the drugs, or there's this drug rehab over here. There's this therapist over here for that. Have that list. Have that information on hand. Right. All right. It's good to sit there and look at people going, no, here, call these people, get help. I mean, and again, you're not doing we're not doing this to be ugly or mean. It's it's what we need to be doing. We're trying to look out for people's well-being here.

Leaders’ Role And Resource Lists

SPEAKER_01 19:08

Again, we're yeah, we're we're trying to help you enrich your life and make it better, not encourage you to do the opposite.

SPEAKER_02 19:17

Right. So again, I I again I encourage everybody, have those lists on hand. Even if you just keep them in a file on your computer desktop and go print them up every time somebody up here, here you go. Here, here's a list of resources. Absolutely. I mean, everything from what the um the the help centers or the call centers, crisis centers, crisis centers, suicide prevention, prevention, everything.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

Just keep a list.

SPEAKER_02 19:47

No, nobody's gonna, I don't think anybody's gonna hate you for having that list on hand to where in the world you can hand it to somebody going, here, here's some resources.

SPEAKER_01 19:56

These people are better trained than I am to help you. Help with this. I will still be here for you, but these people are better trained.

SPEAKER_02 20:07

I can help you with the spiritual part of this where you're having that spiritual revelation. Right. Those are easy to handle. You just sort of sit there and wait for them to calm down and let them run their mouths. Right. Then you tell them later, hey, I recorded all this. Here you go. Now go put this in your book of shadows and leave me alone. And there you go. And don't take me wrong, I'm not being an ass about, I'm not trying to be an ass about this. It's just when people have those experiences, they're very personal experiences. They're not going to move me in the way it moved you. No. All right. And that's one thing you got to remember. We don't all experience this the exact same way. There's a little give and take there, and we have to be a little bit more understanding about that. That, you know, just because Sally had a, you know, this revelation or this spiritual moment only has to do with her, nobody else.

SPEAKER_01 21:01

It's it's kind of like the figures in the clouds. Just because you see a bird, somebody else might see a dinosaur.

SPEAKER_02 21:10

Right. Or those, or again, we've all seen those images where either it could be a rabbit or it could be a fish or it could be right.

SPEAKER_01 21:17

These things are open. Yeah, they're open to interpretation.

SPEAKER_02 21:21

Right. Right. So again, there's no wrong answer here. It was a personal spiritual message for you as an individual, not necessarily for a group of people. Right. We've had this happen before. I've I've had my first degrees call me up and had one call me up, and it was like in the middle of the day. I answered my phone. Hello, how are you? I just saw this rainbow. Mm-hmm. And it's between me, and it looks like it's going from your house to my house. So I just kinda again, it was a personal thing.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

Right. It's not going to mean the same thing to me.

Personal Nature Of Spiritual Messages

SPEAKER_02 21:59

And again, You know, when the woman called me up and I was we she was sort of telling me about that and we were slightly talking about it, she's like, You're just not impressed with this at all. Well, it wasn't my it wasn't for me, right? It was for you. You're supposed to be excited. I'm excited that you're excited about this, but no, it don't have the same impact. Right. You're not doing anything wrong. It's all right. I do understand when people have these experiences, they want to share them, and that's great, but just you got to remember that not everybody's gonna be so moved like you are because they are more personal scenarios versus a group thing.

SPEAKER_01 22:41

Absolutely. Absolutely. I I think in wrapping this up, we just you know, don't ever be ashamed to ask for help. It's not a bad thing.

SPEAKER_02 22:52

And don't be ashamed just to sit and talk to somebody. I right. I'm sorry, you might be surprised. The one person you probably hate the most, if you sat down and probably actually had a coffee with them, you might actually turn out to like each other a whole lot better.

SPEAKER_01 23:06

I mean, perfect example. I was talking to a lady at work uh yesterday, and she was telling me, you know, hey, when I first started here and I met this guy, I didn't like him at all. But then I got to know him.

SPEAKER_02 23:21

Then you got to know.

SPEAKER_01 23:22

And he's okay. I don't, you know. Hey, and she said that she said that about you know quite a few people, and it's like, hey, I mean, it happens. Sometimes you just have to get to know somebody.

SPEAKER_02 23:32

I think that's pretty true. I think but I think a lot of people who just didn't like me just didn't get a chance to know me. Right.

SPEAKER_01 23:41

But yeah, don't don't ever be afraid to ask for help. Don't go to your leaders, go to your clergy, go to your best friend. It's okay.

SPEAKER_02 23:49

Again, this is why there's the priesthood. This is what we're here for. Absolutely. That these are the things you should be calling us about. Hey, I had this spiritual moment. I want to talk to somebody. That's what we're here for. Yep. No judgment, no nothing. I understand that sometimes people have these things and they even need some help trying to translate them into something that they can grasp onto. Right. And and sitting down and talking to a priest or a priestess can help you do that. Anything else you'd like to talk about?

Closing Notes & Where To Find Us

SPEAKER_01 24:21

I think that's about it. Let's go get some coffee. Thanks for listening. Join us next week for another episode. Pegan Coffee Talk is brought to you by Life Temple and Seminary. Please visit us at Life Temple Seminary.org for more information, as well as links to our social media Facebook, Discord, Twitter, YouTube, and Reddit.

SPEAKER_00 24:42

We travel down this trodden path, the maze of stone and mire. Just hold my hand as we pass by a steel blazing pyres. And so it is the end of our days to walk with me till morning breaks, and so it is the end of our days to walk with me till morning.