Gatekeeping or Responsible Priesthood?

In this episode of Pagan Coffee Talk, the hosts tackle one of the most persistent misconceptions in modern Paganism: gatekeeping. They break down why traditional covens aren’t withholding magical secrets, but instead practicing responsible priesthood rooted in training, boundaries, and lineage. Through candid stories and decades of experience, they explain how coven structures protect both the tradition and the students, ensuring that those who carry titles like priest or priestess are actually prepared for the responsibility and authority those roles carry.

The conversation also explores why some in the wider community misunderstand coven practices, often mistaking structured learning, accountability, and mystery‑based religion for elitism. The hosts challenge listeners to consider what they believe is truly being “gatekept,” especially when most magical information is already public. With humor, honesty, and real‑world examples, they highlight the importance of proper training, spiritual maturity, and ethical leadership in Pagan traditions.

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Transcript

What People Call Gatekeeping

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Welcome to Pegan Coffee Talk. If you enjoy our content, please consider donating and following our socials. Let's tackle a topic that is rampant in the pagan community. Has been for decades. Yes. Gatekeeping.

SPEAKER_01 0:39

Yay, gatekeeping.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

Um this is dealing more with how the general pagan community thinks traditional covens gatekeep information.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

Right. Right. We're here to argue that it's not gatekeeping. It's being responsible priests and priestesses.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

I'm gonna say it's not it's not the gatekeeping that most people claim. It's not a restriction of information. No. All right, where you know only a few get it, but when you're ready for it. All right. Now that here's what kills me about the gatekeeping. You can tell me if I'm wrong here. The majority of times when I hear the pagan community talk about Covens and traditionalist gatekeeping stuff, they're normally referring to magic than anything else.

SPEAKER_00 1:41

Which I have to ask. How can you gatekeep that? There's tons and tons and tons of books and papers and information on on the subject.

SPEAKER_01 1:56

How can you gatekeep? There's there is nothing to gatekeep there. No, it's all public.

SPEAKER_00 2:02

No, it's uh yeah, it's all public information.

SPEAKER_01 2:04

It's all public. So let's be honest. What are we really gatekeeping at?

Mysteries And Tradition Boundaries

SPEAKER_00 2:11

Well, we're not really gatekeeping. We are withholding information to a point.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

To a point, yes.

SPEAKER_00 2:20

But what most people don't realize, and correct me if I'm wrong, but what we are actually doing is we're creating boundaries to protect not only our tradition, but we're protecting those in our covenants well.

Degrees Bring Authority And Duty

SPEAKER_01 2:38

Yes. Well, again, what we're doing is we're training people, we are trying to train people to be priests and priestesses of the religion. Right. Once you have that authority as a priestess, first degrees are priests and priestesses automatically. Yes. Okay. So again, as soon as you become a priest or a priestess, you you gain authority. People will listen to you. Yes. All right. I I hate to be this way. I have been in rooms where somebody speaks up going, Well, I'm a first degree from this coven, and the room goes quiet. It sounds like the E.F. Putton commercials we used to grow up with. Yep. And don't even give me sort of what that conversation, what that sounds like when it's a third degree, like a Lady Meyer or Lady Santana, suddenly starts to speak in a room, how fast the room starts going quiet. Oh, absolutely. But you can't have all that authority like that without a lot of responsibility placed on top of it. Right. And here's what kills me is really what we're gatekeeping is our religious mysteries. Where if we told you what they were, they would be absolutely useless to you unless you're following our specific tradition. Right. I don't know what everybody's problem is with, hey, they have a religion that is a mystery religion, and you have to go through their studies to learn those. Right. How is this withholding information from anyone else? It's not. It's specific to us. So why would a gardenerian give a crap what in the world we believe? We're not gardenarian. No. No. Here's what I'd like to see from the opposition on this is can you define what are we gatekeeping? What is it that you are so mad that you think we're actually doing here? We're not. No, I was gonna say, I I sort of like the idea that you got a first degree there, studying to be their second. Okay, they're gonna fall, they're gonna mess up, they're going to cause issues because they're learning. To me, you're in a safe environment here. We know you're learning, and we're and as your high priest or priestess, we're gonna sort of stop you from re from you putting your foot in your mouth before you get there.

SPEAKER_00 5:11

Right.

SPEAKER_01 5:12

Hopefully.

SPEAKER_00 5:14

Hopefully. If not, guess what? You learn the hard way.

SPEAKER_01 5:19

You learn the hard way. But at least you're learning an environment where everybody there is going, oh, okay, we know what's going on here, and it's okay, just let them do what they got to do, and we're not gonna hold it against them because you know what? That was me about two years ago. Right.

SPEAKER_00 5:39

I mean, it's something that it's something that you know most of your leaders have been through, and people before you, people after you, they're all gonna go through it.

The Obi-Wan Robe Story

SPEAKER_01 5:50

Well, see, now you can tell me if I'm wrong here. I I think the problem is here is when people come in the temple now, all right, or meet up with us, they don't see the goofy knight that ran around as a first degree looking like you know, Obi-Wan Kenobi.

SPEAKER_00 6:10

No. And in case you don't know, yes, um, he looked like a character out of Star Wars. He refused to ritual garbage. Wait, he refused to wear a robe. Instead, he wanted pants and a tunic, and he looked like Obi-Wan Kenobi from Star Wars.

SPEAKER_01 6:29

Don't get me wrong, Lord Man gave me hell for years like that. Yes, he did.

SPEAKER_00 6:34

But he let you do it.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

He let me do it. Why? Because I was a first degree. First degrees can get away with crap like that sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 6:41

Sometimes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 6:45

You know, but hey, when I became second, he looked at me, he was like, okay, now you gotta get your black robe with the hood on it now. No. But I mean, we're sitting here laughing, but this is what we're talking about, all right? This is what we're gatekeeping. How does this help anybody else?

Lineage And Earning Trust

SPEAKER_00 7:06

Well, you gotta kind of look at it, you gotta kind of look at it as all right, lineage and in in the in the craft, and in paganism. Lineage is a craft in and of itself. Right? Right. So someone comes in, you're not just gonna hand them all of the tools, all of the information at one time when they're not ready for it.

unknown 7:34

No.

SPEAKER_00 7:34

I mean, you mentioned that earlier. If you don't show that you're ready, if you don't show that you have the discipline or the respect for for this line of craft, then no, we're not gonna hand you that information.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

But no, we're not gonna hand you that authority.

SPEAKER_00 7:53

Right.

SPEAKER_01 7:54

If you can't handle the responsibility of it, we're not gonna hand you the authority of it.

SPEAKER_00 7:58

Right, but that's that's what I'm saying. We're not gonna give you the information to get to that point, and we're definitely not gonna get you to that point overnight because you you're not ready.

SPEAKER_01 8:09

You're not ready. It happens.

SPEAKER_00 8:11

That's our gatekeeping, and that's not really gatekeeping. It's like any other line of study, you progress through the knowledge.

SPEAKER_01 8:21

Well, you don't want to go to an untrained doctor. No, you don't want to go to an untrained therapist, you don't want why would you go to an untrained priest or priestess with spiritual problems?

SPEAKER_00 8:35

Well, and you know, looking at it along those lines, you have to realize, though, again, they progressed through the knowledge. Right, they took certain classes in their first year, they took certain classes in their second year, they progressively increased their knowledge base, and then they did clinicals, you know.

SPEAKER_01 8:54

I mean, well, see, here's my question on this are these people really mad because we're quote unquote gatekeeping, or are they more upset because people recognize our authority because we've come from certain traditions? We do have that liturgy, we do have people behind us going, no, this person's trained, they know what they're doing.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

And why would they be upset about that?

SPEAKER_01 9:20

Because we have that and they don't. Well, I'm sorry, I'm I'm a I'm a solitaire who who's sitting there going, oh no, no, no. He actually knows what he's doing, he actually knows what he's talking about, he's been trained. I was there at his initiation. You don't have that with solitaires.

SPEAKER_00 9:37

Well, no. I'm sorry, with traditionalists, you do. How can how can you be mad at us for that?

SPEAKER_01 9:44

I mean, that's just the culture we live in.

SPEAKER_00 9:47

I mean. It's not saying, it's not saying we're definitely not saying that solitaires can't get to that point.

SPEAKER_01 9:56

No, we're not.

SPEAKER_00 9:57

You're probably just gonna have to work a little bit harder.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 10:02

Jump through a few more hoops than we do.

SPEAKER_01 10:05

It's a little bit different when Lord Min comes to me and goes, Okay, me and you need to take a couple of days off at so me and you can go spend a couple of days in Georgia, Atlanta, Georgia. Fine. What are we going to go do? Well, we're gonna go meet Lady Maya. And then go spend a few days with my elder and this high priestess, and us all have lunch and maybe a dinner and have a conversation with one another. This is how this stuff normally happens.

SPEAKER_00 10:38

Right.

SPEAKER_01 10:38

Or at least it's how it happened for me, and it's the way I've seen it happen to most people of craft. This is how we get that to know each other and and and get that where yes, I can get Lady Mighty going, yeah, I know he's a third degree figure. Right. I I'm sorry that you know, certain groups and stuff like that don't have that, but that's not our fault. No, I don't think. No, it's not. I don't know about you, but I sort of remember a time when I was coming up in this, and everyone wanted that validation from a accredited temple. But they didn't necessarily want always wanted to do the classes or the studies that the temple required.

SPEAKER_00 11:28

Yeah, that I mean that happens a lot, you know. I mean, we get we get people that come for classes, and I'm sure other groups do this to other covens and temples do this too. And people get in there and they start realizing, oh, there's actual work we have to do. Right. And then they leave.

SPEAKER_01 11:45

You know? Yeah. And then they turn around and call it gatekeeping.

Training To Counsel Without Harm

SPEAKER_00 11:51

What are we gatekeeping? No, no, we're we're not gatekeeping. We're we're teaching you to be priests and priestesses.

SPEAKER_01 11:59

Of the religion, uh and how to counsel and help people spiritually and help them grow and help yourself.

SPEAKER_00 12:07

Oh, well, I was gonna say, yeah, we teach you to help yourself first.

SPEAKER_01 12:11

You know.

SPEAKER_00 12:12

You certainly can't help others if you can't help yourself.

SPEAKER_01 12:14

I hey they tell you that every time you're on a plane, please put on your mask before you put on someone else's. Right. Why? Because if you don't, you won't be able to breathe long enough to put on somebody else's mask. It's the same logic there. Again, we do not want to put out people who are going to give out bad spiritual guidance and actually hurt people in the long run. Right. We want to put out people that can actually go out and help people, help people enough to go, okay, maybe you need to go see therapist.

SPEAKER_00 12:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:48

Maybe you need to quit talking to me, go see somebody that a little bit more than I do. Well, I mean instead of your friend down the road who's just going to tell you whatever you want.

SPEAKER_00 12:56

Right. And I was going to say, we've talked about this before because there is a huge responsibility that comes with the title.

SPEAKER_01 13:05

Yes. People listen to you. People recognize you as someone who's an authority on a subject. If you're going around and calling yourself a witch, there is an expectation you're already putting up there.

SPEAKER_00 13:19

Right. Again, historically, people have come to us not for our magic, they've come to us for our wisdom.

SPEAKER_01 13:27

Right.

SPEAKER_00 13:27

They've come to us for our knowledge.

SPEAKER_01 13:30

And that's it.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

And if you don't have the knowledge on how to help somebody, you're stepping on dangerous territory.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

Yes, you are. Because I'm telling you right now, the road to hell is made with good intentions. Well, yeah. All right. And it but it good intentions will blow up in your freaking face, whatever, real fast. Because you're trying to be nice, you're trying to be accommodating, and right that isn't always what people need. Sometimes people need to understand that stuff happens.

SPEAKER_00 14:04

Yep. They kind of need that harsh reality sometimes. No, you know, not being mean about it or anything. But sometimes, you know, you need that reality that says, look, actually, you need therapy. Or actually, this is just shit that happens.

SPEAKER_01 14:23

So I I'm gonna I'm gonna sit back and I'm gonna answer this question before we're done with all of this. All right. If we're not gatekeeping magic, and what we are gatekeeping is the mysteries of our religion, which again, our tradition, and if that has no bearing on anything else but our tradition, what do y'all keep on claiming we're gatekeeping? Because I'm like you. What what what magic is out there that's not public? For crying out loud, we don't even technically we don't teach magic. I do not teach you magic spells when you come to class.

SPEAKER_00 15:01

Nope.

SPEAKER_01 15:01

Again, we teach magic theory and that's it.

SPEAKER_00 15:05

Right. That's it.

SPEAKER_01 15:06

So I it's that simple. It's it's that simple. So I because all I have to say is, you know, what are we gatekeeping? What is it that y'all think we are gatekeeping? What secrets do you actually think we have here?

SPEAKER_00 15:20

I mean, it's uh I mean, just when it comes down to it, what what we are quote unquote gatekeeping is not gatekeeping at all.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

No.

SPEAKER_00 15:29

I don't know how many more times we have to say that.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

Well, no, I'm asking, I'm actually asking the question because I I would like some feedback from people. What is it that y'all actually think we're really gatekeeping? What do you think we're hiding from y'all that is so earth-shattering? Are you with me? Because they all act the same way, like we are hiding some big secret, and I'm like, it's really not that big of a secret. What are y'all talking about? So I'd like to know what do y'all actually think we're actually gatekeeping out there? I mean in the meantime.

SPEAKER_00 16:03

Oh in the meantime.

SPEAKER_01 16:06

In the meantime, you're ready for some coffee. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:10

Thanks for listening. Join us next week for another episode. Pegan Coffee Talk is brought to you by Life Temple and Seminary. Please visit us at life templeseminary.org for more information, as well as links to our social media. Facebook, Discord, Twitter, YouTube, and Reddit.

SPEAKER_02 16:29

We travel down this trodden path, the maze of stone and mire. Just hold my hand as we pass by a steel blazing fires. And so it is the end of our days, to walk with me till morning breaks. And so it is the end of our days to walk with me till morning break.