Why Pagan Arguments Fail Against Christian Apologists

Pagan Coffee Talk dives into why pagan‑versus‑Christian debates so often feel lopsided, arguing that pagans typically rely on emotional critiques while Christian apologists arrive with polished, rehearsed strategies. The hosts break down the three most common pagan arguments—historical atrocities, biblical contradictions, and the problem of evil—and explain why each one collapses under practiced apologetic framing. They emphasize that these surface‑level attacks don’t challenge the deeper logical structures Christian apologists use, leaving pagans looking unprepared rather than persuasive.

The conversation shifts into a sharper, more analytical critique of biblical narratives themselves, from the fall of the First Temple and the disappearance of the Ark of the Covenant to the inconsistencies surrounding the Exodus and the political implications of Jesus’ execution. By examining these stories through historical, cultural, and sociological lenses, the hosts argue that many biblical accounts fail to align with known human behavior or archaeological evidence. This, they suggest, is where stronger pagan arguments actually exist—yet these points rarely appear in public debates.

Ultimately, the episode calls for a more educated, research‑driven pagan community—one capable of meeting Christian apologists on equal intellectual footing. The hosts advocate for scholarly pagan voices to step forward, replacing “fluffy bunny” arguments with historically grounded, logically structured critiques. It’s a call to elevate the quality of interfaith debate and to encourage pagans to understand not just their own traditions, but the rhetorical frameworks used against them.

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Transcript

Welcome And Quick Housekeeping

SPEAKER_02 0:16

Welcome to Pagan Coffee Talk. If you enjoy our content, please consider donating and following our socials.

SPEAKER_04 0:24

Last week the episode sort of inspired me to look at some stuff because there was something I mentioned in it about, you know, never seeing certain pagans debate these Christian apologists. You know, like what's her name? The the Italian girl. I can't think of her name. Or um the foolish fish or none of these actual you never see them debate them. No, you don't. If you go out there and you hunt for pagans versus Christians debate type things, you run into the same problem. The Christians uh again, they're always sort of low-hanging fruit debates.

Why Pagan Debates Go Sideways

SPEAKER_04 1:04

And pagans always wind up looking like idiots. Why there's three levels of attack that most pagans do.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

Most, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:12

All right. And that first one is normally them complaining about like what the crusades and what happened there. Right, and the Inquisition. It's this whole entire, ooh, they went out and attacked these poor innocent people, and then the Christian apologist pops up and explains how the government and finances and geopolitics was going on, and you start to realize there's a little bit more to this story than just what happened in the Bible.

SPEAKER_03 1:36

Right. Well, um well, the crusades weren't biblical, so not necessarily. Crusades were more political.

SPEAKER_04 1:43

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:44

It was more uh we're gonna conquer these lands.

SPEAKER_04 1:47

Right. It was in response to what in the world was being going on with the Muslim nations and stuff like that. So again, this is nothing more than typical geopolitics.

SPEAKER_01 1:57

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:57

And that's why in the world we lose, because by the time we get done with it, that's what it winds up looking like. And everybody's like, well, duh, that's a nothing burger.

SPEAKER_03 2:05

Nothing burger.

SPEAKER_04 2:06

Well, again, that's what it winds up being. Right. Then we got our next attack, which is typically the whole entire uh contradictions in the Bible. Right. I'm not saying these contradictions do not exist.

SPEAKER_03 2:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:18

I can sit here and watch atheist channels all day on day long, and they will point every last one out that's there. But yet the Christians still manipulate you into believing that it's the themes, not the details. They they are likened it to uh different witnesses at a crime scene.

SPEAKER_03 2:38

Well, yeah, because like you've got the four gospels, and each gospel is an account, is a quote unquote account of the life of Christ.

SPEAKER_04 2:46

From someone else's point of view. Here's the reason the story is. The stories are a little bit different. Right. So it's more important to make it look like that it all sort of sinks together in the long run over the long scene, and that's how they win this argument. Because the majority of the times when pagans bring this up, we really don't have anything to sit there and say, Hey, look at this here, here he's 10, and you tell the story again here later, he's 18.

SPEAKER_03 3:13

Right. So what happened to Matoria?

SPEAKER_04 3:14

Well, what what why? It's the exact same story. The only difference is in one he's eight and the other one he's 10, he's 18.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:22

Again, it's small inconsistencies like that, but they use this whole entire, ooh, mystical, magical, ooh, as long as it all flows together, it's supposed to be right. Right. And again, they get off of it. The Christian apologists, the way they put it out and the way they say it. Well, I was gonna say we wind up looking like idiots yet again.

SPEAKER_03 3:39

I was gonna say their tactics are a little more rehearsed.

SPEAKER_04 3:43

This is an industry for them.

SPEAKER_03 3:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 3:45

The pagan commun community does not have pagan apologists. No. And there's sort of my point.

SPEAKER_01 3:52

Right.

SPEAKER_04 3:53

Again, all these attacks we do are emotional attacks, and they wind up sounding like just us whining. Going, ooh, Christians bad.

SPEAKER_01 4:04

Right.

SPEAKER_04 4:04

And y'all have done all this bad stuff. What religion hasn't? I mean, they've all done it to some extent. I mean, I'm not saying paganism has a clean history here or right. I'm not playing this game.

SPEAKER_01 4:16

Right.

SPEAKER_04 4:17

And then normally the last attack is the whole entire about God being good and kids getting cancer and all the violence that they've done.

SPEAKER_03 4:25

Yeah, that basically he's a monster.

SPEAKER_04 4:28

He's a monster in the whole nine yards. Well, there's a problem with that, but a Christian apologist put it out with they were justified in doing so.

SPEAKER_03 4:35

Right. The kid with cancer might have been saved from a life of something else, or it's God's will.

SPEAKER_04 4:42

And they they invoke the plot armor line, which is we don't know God's.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

Right.

SPEAKER_04 4:49

Actually, what they're saying is we don't actually have an answer. I recognize the contradiction in what you're saying, but ooh, mystical, magical plot armor, activate.

SPEAKER_03 4:58

Right. Well, then too, you know, it's and I heard it a lot growing up. When you pray for something, they always throw in, God, if it be your will.

SPEAKER_04 5:09

Right.

SPEAKER_03 5:10

And that way they kind of get out of, well, it didn't happen. Okay, well, God didn't think I needed it. Right. These are the arguments we do.

SPEAKER_04 5:18

All right. I'm going to sit here and say, and again, a lot of I have been accused over the years of being possibly a Christian apologist myself, playing as a pagan. Right. All right.

The Ark And The First Temple Problem

SPEAKER_04 5:29

So let's end this. I do have problems with Christianity. All right. It's just my problems are a little bit different than these arguments. Right. My first argument, my first problem is I do not understand how in the world the first temple fail. Right. It makes no sense to me. Because the temple was built specifically. Okay, because everybody keeps on thinking temple. They think of temples like we're talking about where you go to worship. This wasn't that kind of temple. This was more like a safe deposit box for the Ark of the Covenant. Right. The what is known as the throne of God. Right. Because again, if you just touched it, you automatically died instantly.

SPEAKER_01 6:07

Right.

SPEAKER_04 6:07

So it's not like they could leave it out in the middle of the town square for all the kids to run around and play. No, of course not. But again, it destroyed armies. It can move seas and oceans and all this other stuff. How did the temple fall? And all instances of stuff. We're talking about the the Ark of the Covenant being a weapon of mass destruction. Yeah. And they knew how to use it. How did the temple fall? It magically, suddenly, this magical thing just disappeared.

SPEAKER_03 6:40

I don't know. It's been years since I've even researched any of that.

SPEAKER_04 6:45

So that's what don't make no sense to me. You know, and again, the the all the arguments for it don't make no sense either. Oh, it was moved. Why? That's its safety deposit box. That's where it's supposed to be. That was the rule from God. Ark of the Covenant goes into the temple.

SPEAKER_01 6:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:59

It's the Holy of Holies. End of subject. Why would you take it out? Why would you remove it? And I'm sorry if the Babylonians came over and actually destroyed it or took it, how? They can't touch it. They don't know how to operate it. The whole story don't make no sense to me. Right. But again, I'd never hear anyone talk ask a Christian apologist this in any of these debates. No, you usually don't hear the hard-hitting questions. No, you don't. It's all f flimsy stuff.

Exodus Logic And Missing Consequences

SPEAKER_04 7:29

I mean, that's just kind of like the whole Exodus stuff.

SPEAKER_01 7:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:33

According to the book of the Bible, according to Exodus, nobody has sat there and told me, explain to me why in the world Egypt is not a Jewish state right now. The whole entire thing of the the the plagues and stuff was literally a a war between the gods of Egypt and the gods of the the Jewish people. Right. Alright? And according to that story, the Hebrew god had the bigger dick. Yeah. He won. I still don't understand why in the world the Pharaoh's not still alive. He should have been slaughtered. He was their God king. He failed in his job when all the firstborns were born uh were killed. Right. And even then, he was a firstborn. How's he even still alive? There wasn't a there wasn't an age limit on that.

SPEAKER_03 8:19

Well, no, but I mean it's possible, and I know it's not been proven or anything, but it's possible that he wasn't a firstborn.

SPEAKER_04 8:30

Considering they don't actually name which pharaoh did this. Right. Because pharaoh is a title. Yes. So all we'd have to do is go back and look and see who what pharaoh actually had to use the second son. Because the first one died or something.

SPEAKER_03 8:47

Right, but even then you still don't have a specific time in history when the exodus happened. You can't even do that because you don't have a time frame to go by. Well, you don't even have archaeological evidence that the plagues even happened.

SPEAKER_04 9:05

There's no mass grapes.

SPEAKER_03 9:06

Well, no, but even if you did, I'm just saying you don't have a time frame. You don't. If there was evidence, maybe we could get a time frame.

SPEAKER_04 9:13

Well we still have this problem, all right? Because back in these days, these people lived the religion. Yeah. All right. And what do I mean by this? Okay. The fair the Pharaoh, just to do a normal business meeting, what we would just walk into a conference room, sit down, and no, for him, this is completely different in their world. There has to be ceremonies, there has to be prayers, there has to be incense and stuff just for the meeting to even start. Right. Okay? So what in the world actually happened here was they literally, all right, Moses literally destroyed their whole entire civilization and everything. They should have fallen apart. At the end of it, there should have been Egyptian men outside mutilating themselves to have that covenant with the Hebrew God and putting Moses on as up as a Pharaoh. There's a story, there's a whole entire story about the same thing happening, but with the Vikings, where the Vikings saw the power of the uh Christian God and converted on the spot.

SPEAKER_01 10:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:17

That's human behavior. Yeah. And when you have overwhelming evidence that your gods are false, but yet we keep on following them. How does that make sense?

SPEAKER_03 10:27

Yeah, I mean, that's definitely an argument I would love to see take place between a scholarly person and someone that actually knows what they're talking about. And a Christian apologist. Yes. I would love to see that conversation because yeah, that makes no sense.

SPEAKER_04 10:43

That makes no sense. At the end of the day, their civilization should have crumbled, their finances, everything. The priest should have been slaughtered. Right. If I was a regular Egyptian and my my firstborn son just dropped dead after the Nile and all this other stuff, I'm I'm riding out in the streets. I'm not worried about it.

SPEAKER_03 11:03

Well, and what about the guards? What about the guards? I mean, the guards probably had kids, right?

SPEAKER_04 11:07

Well, well, again, most Christian apologists pop up this whole entire, but he hardened the heart of Pharaoh. Okay, but he didn't harden it, didn't say anything about his priest, didn't say nothing about his bodyguards, didn't say nothing about the people. Right. So all these people just completely go, oh, hey, this guy's God just slapped us to middle of next week, and we're gonna go chase after him.

SPEAKER_03 11:27

Right. You could the story goes that, you know, God hardened his heart and he, you know, he relented and he let the people go.

SPEAKER_04 11:36

Then he hardened his heart and he went after him.

SPEAKER_03 11:38

Okay. But what about the Egyptian people? What about the guards? What about the priests? What about the soldiers? What I'm saying. What happened with them? There's there things don't work like that in Egyptian society. But things don't work like that in any society. Well, no, I mean, but especially back then.

SPEAKER_04 11:59

Back then, no.

SPEAKER_03 12:00

It wouldn't have worked like that.

SPEAKER_04 12:02

Egypt should not exist right now, according to the Exodus story. As far as I'm concerned, there's no reason for it to exist. All right, which again brings up the whole entire thing is that the whole entire Old Testament is nothing more than mythology, just like everybody else's. Right. And all it does is describe the the Jewish uh people's beginning and how in the world they got their covenant with their God.

SPEAKER_01 12:29

Right.

SPEAKER_04 12:30

That's it.

Resurrection Claims And Roman Reality

SPEAKER_04 12:32

And then when you move to the New Testament, all you get is the creation of the Christian church, right? Which is done in more historical context because we actually have those letters and that stuff, unlike in the Old Testament.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

Right.

SPEAKER_04 12:45

And even then, we still have this whole entire problem. I have this whole entire problem with Christ's birth, life, and death and resurrection.

SPEAKER_03 12:54

Well, I was gonna say we may have the letters to the church, and we may have all that stuff, but there's a lot of things we don't have. A lot of things we don't have.

SPEAKER_04 13:04

I will tell you what we do have. We do have records from Roman times back then that states that a guy named Jesus was arrested, prosecuted, and killed for being a political enemy. Right. For being a political enemy. I want y'all to think about this. Not a religious, not a religious. This was again, religion and politics were very close woven together. Yeah. All right. They were basically one and the same. So again, it was done more politics. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 13:35

But you could easily argue that if they were that woven together, then it didn't really matter what the phrase you used.

SPEAKER_04 13:41

It did, it really don't. But at the end of the day, okay, a leader of a group dies and then resurrected in three days, and there's not a rebellion? There's not a single note. You're gonna tell me that the Romans killed a political enemy, then heard the body die uh disappeared maybe a few days uh three days later.

SPEAKER_01 14:03

Right.

SPEAKER_04 14:04

And they're not going to investigate. That is a rebellion in the making. I'm sorry, there's a reason it's in every story because again, this is history, this is what people do.

SPEAKER_01 14:14

Right.

SPEAKER_04 14:16

I mean, I'm sorry, there's been plots to make leaders disappear to get the people to revolt. Nothing.

SPEAKER_01 14:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:24

Oh, no, no, no, no, no. It was just uh mystical, magical God, mystical, magical. We don't know his way. Oh, he didn't it was an important what are you talking about?

SPEAKER_01 14:35

Right.

SPEAKER_04 14:37

For crying out loud. I mean, come on, look at today. We don't let anything go. And we ain't no we're no different than anybody else. No. So again, I do not see where in the world the Romans would not have investigated a political person who had been sir, you know, killed, disappearing in three days, and not do any investigation. Not a word, not a peep.

SPEAKER_03 14:59

Okay, so to get off of sounding like this is a rant against Christianity.

How To Challenge Circular Bible Logic

SPEAKER_03 15:05

Right. I'm just saying, which it's not, but it's not kind of sounding that way at this point. I'm sorry about that. It's just the logic. I know, but how does this how does this help us debate?

SPEAKER_04 15:16

Well, again, we're we're we're we don't need to debate from such an emotional spot. We need to debate these people from an actual logical spot. Okay. Most of Christian apologists, when they start their these whole entire arguments off, they'll introduce themselves and they basically will sit there and state that since the Bible comes from God and it's the infallible word of God, that it is just truth. Unfortunately, that statement basically is the whole entire argument right there.

SPEAKER_01 15:45

Right.

SPEAKER_04 15:46

Because no matter what in the world you do, we're going to refer back to this. I've already told you it was the truth. Because why? I'm doing the whole entire what's a woman definition. I'm using the word woman to describe the word woman. I'm using the Bible to verify my information about the Bible.

SPEAKER_03 16:05

Well, and like uh that's like just what I said earlier. Their tactics are rehearsed.

SPEAKER_04 16:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 16:11

And this is what they teach people.

SPEAKER_04 16:13

Right. I mean, but again, when you first walk into that argument, it's never actually going to happen. I will probably never actually get a chance to actually debate one of these people. Right. All right. And if I did, I probably would fail too. I'm just putting it out there. But you would have fun doing it. I'd have fun doing it. All right. I would start, I would want to be the opening person because I would want to sit there and say, my truth, truth comes from nature. We see it.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

Right.

SPEAKER_04 16:37

It's active, it's not some maybe possibly behind closed doors inside a book that maybe you can read or not read if it's in your language. I'm talking about our truth comes from nature. Everyone can read it. It's written there, it's the fingerprints of the God, so therefore it is truth. Right. And science backs us up. Your Bible backs you up. Now, please explain to me how in the world, outside of using your own Bible, can you prove that your book is the Word of God? The idea there is you have to set up your arguments. Basically, I would be doing this to get him to state this so I could sit there and argue the fact is that you don't have proof that this is other than itself.

SPEAKER_01 17:23

Right.

SPEAKER_04 17:24

It's the same argument about the witches who want to declare themselves I'm a witch.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:29

It's a self-professional, there's no way to break the logic.

SPEAKER_03 17:33

No, and and you know, by pagan logic, well, if it works for you, then it's what it is.

SPEAKER_04 17:41

It works for you, but I'd like you to, you know, at least state you're using circular logic to justify that you are correct.

SPEAKER_03 17:48

Yeah, but most people aren't even going to admit to that.

SPEAKER_04 17:51

Most people won't admit to it, but most people I don't see anybody actually attacking that. I don't see anybody in these debates going, wait a minute, you're using circular logic to justify you being the truth to start with.

SPEAKER_01 18:03

Right.

SPEAKER_04 18:04

So can you please explain this without using the Bible? Right. You know, oh, proof and that well, I'm sorry, so do other religions. Yeah. And where they keep on, Christian apologists keep on putting up, hey, you know, we've had these civilizations for years and we've grown all this stuff, and we if we wouldn't have all that. No. All you gotta do is go over to Asia and the China and all this, and all of a sudden their arguments fall apart because those have been around a lot longer than Christianity. Right. And some of these other religions.

Sacred Geography And The Temple Mount

SPEAKER_04 18:36

You're lying there. The archaeology and the science does not hold up the old testament of the Bible. Right. It doesn't back up the stories. It don't back up. To make it even worse, is there's more proof that the pagan cities and stuff actually existed because our myths are a little bit more looser. Right. It does not matter to me if you found the place where the Twaffeda non land in Ireland.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

Right.

SPEAKER_04 19:00

It does not I'm I'm you see, it's not a holy thing to me. Right. Because the whole world is a holy thing to me. So to sit there and again, to it has to be this exact sp why. Right. I mean, that's the whole argument with the Temple Mound I have. Again, why? The whole world. No, no, no, this spot's sp no it ain't. It's no more special than any other spot on the earth.

SPEAKER_03 19:26

Well, and even then, you know, something like that is just it's a speculated spot.

SPEAKER_04 19:31

It's yes.

SPEAKER_03 19:32

But this is this is Dave Villnan said, We're good, we've determined that this is the spot we're gonna call this particular thing.

SPEAKER_04 19:41

Right. And then again, it becomes this the Temple Mound problem we have right now. I again don't know.

SPEAKER_03 19:47

It's a sacred spot. It's you know, people travel, you know, for days on end by foot to get to these places.

SPEAKER_04 19:54

Well again, this is also a tension that could actually trigger off a war war could, yeah. Easily. But there's my point. I don't see pagans doing that. We don't look at each other going, okay, we're gonna kill each other over sacred freaking spots. The whole earth is sacred.

SPEAKER_03 20:10

Right.

SPEAKER_04 20:11

What are y'all talking about?

SPEAKER_03 20:12

I mean, the only thing that I can see that might come close to that would be like Stonehenge. Maybe. I mean, because you know, they hold they hold the big celebrations around the solstices and the equinoxes every year. That's the only thing that I could see that might be.

SPEAKER_04 20:32

Come close. Well, I would sit there and argue just by us celebrating somewhere on earth makes it a sacred spot.

SPEAKER_03 20:39

Well, sure, but I'm just saying as far as any specific spot goes, that's the only thing that I can see comes close to something like that. But but we don't even know its origins. We don't know anything about it really.

SPEAKER_04 20:53

But I do not see pagan religions ready to go to war because somebody wants to build something on stone are you with me? Yeah, but that's but yeah.

Educate The Community And Raise The Bar

SPEAKER_04 21:03

Here's my problem is we need pagan community needs to educate itself better before it goes out here and debate these people.

SPEAKER_01 21:10

Right.

SPEAKER_04 21:11

Or we need to start demanding that these more intellectual pagans start to debate these people. Can we see that?

SPEAKER_01 21:18

Right.

SPEAKER_04 21:19

Can we see something a little bit more on par with each other? Watching the whole entire Steven Crowder take out, you know, college kids and stuff. That's not to me an even fight.

SPEAKER_03 21:31

No, it's not.

SPEAKER_04 21:32

Yeah, same thing with the turning points and all this other it there you're you're getting random people off the street where you have a guy that's sat here and has a binder full of data.

SPEAKER_03 21:41

Right. And I mean they are doing they are doing, I think they're doing a good thing by the by getting people to talk, but no, it's not a fair argument. It's not a fair fight, it's not a fair debate.

SPEAKER_04 21:52

Nope.

SPEAKER_03 21:53

Even though they are getting people to think.

SPEAKER_04 21:56

But I would love to see I would a fair debate between a Christian apologi and a real scholarly.

SPEAKER_03 22:05

Right, which which there are some that are out there. I mean, you you know, we've we watched some on YouTube and you know, they're great people, and they they they've done their research, they've done their studies, and they have the information. Right. Let's get these people with the Christian apologists together.

SPEAKER_04 22:24

Yeah, let's let's I I'd like I would like to see some of these more educated literally go and we never get that. Again, it's always the I gonna I'm probably gonna get in trouble. Yeah, it's always a freaking fluffy bunny who's read a book.

SPEAKER_01 22:40

Right.

SPEAKER_04 22:41

I I mean I hate to be that way. It why is it always that person that gets the debate?

SPEAKER_03 22:46

Because it's I mean it's it's always the one who screams the loudest.

SPEAKER_04 22:50

Yeah. Make it make sense.

SPEAKER_03 22:52

I'm not trying to insult those people, but why does it always seem to be at least be better prepared?

SPEAKER_04 22:58

Be better prepared. I I mean, can can y'all take a moment and do some research, some study? AI, anybody, I'm sorry, this is easy to start to kind of like look up, going, hey, you know, why do pagans lose out on these arguments with Christian apologists?

SPEAKER_01 23:13

Right.

SPEAKER_04 23:14

And it starts breaking it down and showing you, okay, you know, take some time, people, please.

Coffee Sign Off And Where To Find Us

SPEAKER_04 23:21

So I'm ready for some coffee.

SPEAKER_03 23:23

Yeah, me too. Thanks for listening. Join us next week for another episode. Pagan Coffee Talk is brought to you by Life Temple and Seminary. Please visit us at life templeseminary.org for more information, as well as links to our social media: Facebook, Discord, Twitter, YouTube, and Reddit.

SPEAKER_00 23:45

We travel down this trodden path, a maze of stone and mire. Just hold my hand as we pass by a sea of blazing fires, and so it is the end of our days, so walk with me till morning breaks, and so it is the end of our days, so walk with me till morning.