Ethics Beyond Personal Comfort

Pagan Coffee Talk dives into a challenging question: does “doing what feels right” actually harm paganism? In this episode, we unpack the growing trend of lazy spirituality—a mindset that blurs the line between personal magical practice and communal religious ethics. While personal spellwork can be intuitive and individualized, the conversation argues that applying the same “follow your feelings” approach to religion erodes shared standards, weakens community cohesion, and undermines credibility. As one speaker notes, “Magic is a personal private thing… but religion requires ethics, responsibility, and balance.”

The discussion explores how comfort‑based spirituality leads to spiritual narcissism, inconsistency, and even harmful advice disguised as authenticity. The hosts emphasize that pagan communities thrive when they uphold universal ethical principles—keep your word, accept responsibility, and maintain balance—rather than relying on personal whims. We argue that without these shared foundations, pagan groups struggle to function, lose trust, and become easy targets for outside criticism. As stated in the transcript, “Doing what feels good separates us more than it brings us together.”

Ultimately, the episode calls for a return to grounded, ethical, community‑centered pagan practice. By distinguishing magic from religion and rejecting ego‑driven shortcuts, practitioners can strengthen their traditions, deepen spiritual connection, and build communities that endure.

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Transcript

Welcome Donations And The Question

SPEAKER_01 0:15

Welcome to Pegan Coffee Talk. If you enjoy our content, please consider donating and following our socials. I have a question for you. Okay. Is doing what feels right actually harming paganism?

SPEAKER_00 0:35

I believe so. I really do. Why?

Spellwork And Personal Correspondences

SPEAKER_00 0:39

Well, first of all, we're gonna have to start somewhere, all right? I'm gonna have to start with we're gonna have to separate magic from religion.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

Spell casting, doing what feels good, all right? If you want to cast the healing spell, and for some reason, red that you associate with blood, which you associate with life, gives you a feeling that this is the best way for you to go, do it. And if you do put it out there and somebody goes, Well, you know, you really shouldn't use red, blah, blah, blah. Again, it's your own personal thing, it's what gets you there.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

Okay.

When Feel Good Becomes Moral Law

SPEAKER_00 1:18

When we take this concept into religion, though, it causes problems. Because there's a difference between the two practices. Magic is a personal private thing. Most witches I know really don't do group spells that much. When because when we're in ritual, we're there to celebrate the gods and not cast spells per se.

SPEAKER_01 1:43

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

That's why I'm trying to separate them. If whatever it takes for you to get that feeling to cast that spell, use it. To get everybody else's correspondence and stuff, all that's irrelevant for spell casting. Right. The problem is when you bring this concept over to religions and morals and ethics, do what feels good. Because here we have a problem, because I've talked before, we believe in nature. We believe nature is the truth of everything, right? That this is where we get our morals and our ethics from. If we look at this, nature tells us that everything's going to take the path of least resistance. Right. Water takes the path of least resistance, electricity does. Humans do this. Why work harder, work smarter? All right. Don't have any problems with these concepts. But for things to work, for things to grow, there has to be resistance. For us to get electronics to work inside uh your your technology and stuff, we have these things called resistors. We put them in there and it controls the flow. It forces that flow of energy to go away. It don't want to necessarily go.

SPEAKER_01 2:57

Right.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

But we can't, so humans, we got to do differently. All right. To grow, to learn, we have to challenge ourselves. We've talked about this before. That when you're learning and stuff like that, you should be uncomfortable. You should be a little emotional. Why? Because you're you're learning something new, you're struggling with something.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

Right.

SPEAKER_00 3:18

There's the point. The problem with doing what feels good is the following problem. What happens when you look at a serial killer and go, yeah, do what feels good. That's that's the law, that's our moral, that's our ethic. You should always just do what feels good.

SPEAKER_01 3:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:36

Because what feels good to a what what feels good to a to a serial killer? Killing people. Don't get me wrong. I don't want to sit here and go, okay, what is that? Somebody will pop up and go, well, that's a little bit of an extreme, right?

SPEAKER_01 3:52

Well, it is, but it's, I mean, it's a very good example, especially when you're talking about morals and ethics and religion.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

And well, and then, but then you also get to the smaller colarms. Oh, so it feels good to molest kids. It feels good to rape women.

SPEAKER_01 4:09

Right.

SPEAKER_00 4:10

We're not drawing a line there because again, this does not work in society. As soon as we say, do whatever in the world you want, ethics and morals go out the window. It's the laziest way of doing stuff.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

Right. And I'm sorry, well, I'm not sorry, but lazy spirituality doesn't work.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

Well, well, again, it puts pagan community in this position to where we don't look like we know what we're doing. We don't really have any ethics because we have no ground point to where we all agree.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

Yeah, we lose credibility for sure.

SPEAKER_00 4:46

We yeah, I mean, as soon as you oh no, do what you feel good. Well, that starts to lose credibility when you actually start to think about it. That's just like the harm none. When you start to actually think about it, it's it it becomes impossible. But yeah, we'll still take the lazy way out.

SPEAKER_01 5:05

Yeah, it's a problem. It's a big problem.

SPEAKER_00 5:11

Everything about this thought to me goes against all pagan philosophy that we uh preach. Does it what do you think?

SPEAKER_01 5:20

Well, it's I I think part of it comes from the whole thing of um well we'll call it comfort. Right? You get comfortable in the easy way, and when you step outside of that, it does create that uneasiness, it creates tension, it creates uh for lack of a better word, it may create some trauma. But again, that's what makes us stronger, that's what helps us learn.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

Well, I mean, I realize part of this came from the whole entire thing of people trying to resist the whole dogma of certain religions. Oh, sure, yeah. All right, and the rules and stuff because it didn't fit to them. All right. But that doesn't mean we don't have morals and ethics that we shouldn't do this.

SPEAKER_01 6:15

All right.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

Because here's the problem doing what feels good is assuming that we all have the same morals.

SPEAKER_01 6:22

Okay. Yeah, and that's kind of difficult.

SPEAKER_00 6:25

Uh to some extent, it but it doesn't really work. All right, because again, here's your problem. Here's your problem because you can have a kid raised in a house with an alcoholic. One kid could uh grow up to be an alcoholic why another one completely won't touch it at all. Right. This is the this is a moral stance because morals are personal. Yes. And I don't know too many people's morals who line up 100% with each other.

SPEAKER_01 6:51

No, and there are there are times when your morals don't even line up with your religious beliefs.

SPEAKER_00 6:57

No. So again, we have this problem here, all right. So, but this is where ethics come in. This is where we say, okay, as a group, we believe it is all right to that you should keep your word. If you sit there and swear an oath and say you're gonna tell the truth, you should do that. And if we find you're not, we're going to not look at you the same. We're either going to put you in jail or punish you somehow because it's unbecoming to our ethics and morals as a group. So, how do we do that when do whatever feels good?

SPEAKER_01 7:32

Yeah, you can't.

SPEAKER_00 7:34

What morals and ethics do you actually have? Where are you gonna do? What are you gonna tell that serial killer who's sitting there arguing, yes, it is good to kill people?

SPEAKER_01 7:43

Right.

SPEAKER_00 7:44

How are you gonna argue that?

SPEAKER_01 7:46

Well, let me ask you this.

Practices That Challenge Us To Grow

SPEAKER_01 7:49

Aside from meditation, because we know meditation creates some discomfort but produces a lot of growth. What else, what other spiritual practices require discomfort but produce growth?

SPEAKER_00 8:06

I don't know. Listening to people you don't agree with. I I'm sorry, I sit here all day watching videos and listening to other stuff of people who don't agree with paganism.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

True.

SPEAKER_00 8:17

Believe it or not, I think I learned more about paganism that way than I actually do from the pagan books.

SPEAKER_01 8:23

All right, so debate. Yeah, we can we can put that into a spiritual practice as well.

SPEAKER_00 8:29

I'm sorry, me and Lord, me and Lord men would debate all the time, and I think I learned more during that time.

SPEAKER_01 8:34

Very true.

SPEAKER_00 8:36

And trust me, anybody listen to me and him, trust me, me and him did not always agree with stuff. All right, but there's learning. Yes, we should do this respectful, we shouldn't be emotional and stuff like this, and we need to talk to each other. Right. But I'm sorry. Going around and telling everybody, do what feels good.

unknown 9:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:01

And trying to sit there and tell people, okay, those who say don't do this is gatekeeping. We're not gatekeeping. We have morals, we have ethics, we need to behave as a group. We got to get along. There are certain things I believe in personally. I try my best not to take into the temple.

SPEAKER_01 9:21

Well, yeah, absolutely. I mean, we all do that. Well, we all should do that.

SPEAKER_00 9:25

You know, like when I'm teaching and stuff like this, and stuff comes up, and I know there's modern day stuff in the news that sort of matches up with what I'm teaching, I'm not going to use that in class.

SPEAKER_01 9:36

No.

SPEAKER_00 9:37

Because that's politics. That brings something else in here.

SPEAKER_01 9:40

Right.

SPEAKER_00 9:41

Because I don't hate these people. You're with me. Yeah. I just wish they would actually finish their thought.

SPEAKER_01 9:50

Well,

Lazy Spirituality And Spiritual Narcissism

SPEAKER_01 9:51

let me ask you, what are what are some of the things that we're seeing in pagan communities that are that are due to this lazy spirituality?

SPEAKER_00 10:02

I'll put it to you this way. I I've sat here and listened to a few pagans talk, and I when when I'm sitting here listening to people criticize, okay, this person over here has set up their studio to look all mystical and spiritual to put you in the mood when you're watching their videos, while the same person sits there and argue, well, we're being authentic, we're just sitting here in our living room and not doing anything. Don't realize they're doing the exact same thing.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 10:31

All right. There, there's a laziness thought. All right. The fact is, they are both trying to project a certain image to people. Yes, they're doing it from two separate ends of the coin there, but they're still doing the exact same thing. We're not going to look at that behavior in ourselves, but yet we're going to call out other people and try to claim that we're better because we don't do it when we are.

SPEAKER_01 10:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

By mentioning it. Why even mention it? I mean, that's sort of the reason why I don't really like us doing video because I think people are going to be more concentrated on what's in our background, or this, or that, or how clean, or how dirty? You need to be listening to what we're saying. All these people that do these aesthetics and stuff like that, this is that simple, this is doing what feels good.

SPEAKER_01 11:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:26

And my question is that these people doing this, what are they actually giving you? What are their actual ethics? How are you going to handle do what feels good when you're dealing with people who want to do who think doing bad things feels good? I mean, I realize I'm technically putting a damn nuclear bomb on the pagan community, calling them out because this is what our biggest things you hear all the time. And I'm telling the pagan community, we need to stop.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:54

This really does lead us down to a place to where it's insanity. It don't make no sense. It is pure and other chaos for chaos' sake. And it will hurt people in the long run.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

Well, I I think what it boils down to is it kind of it creates like spiritual narcissism. But it's being dis but it's being disguised as being authentic.

unknown 12:18

Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:19

Just like you were talking about with the people, you know, with all the the the witchy backgrounds and whatever else. Ooh, look what I've got.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 12:35

Look at me.

SPEAKER_00 12:36

Look at how kind I am. Y'all just do whatever feels good. We're gonna justify this and stuff like that. Not sitting there thinking, okay, you're sitting there telling that witch that don't know where any too much of anything, sitting there looking at people, going, no, your your daughter or your your child does not need to go to therapy. No, no, no. We just need to do an exorcism instead.

SPEAKER_01 12:59

Right.

SPEAKER_00 13:00

You know, no, you don't need to take them to a doctor and no or anything. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 13:05

Or here, there's a spell for those.

SPEAKER_00 13:07

Because again, we're gonna do what feels good. What strokes my ego. That's all this is. Well, and I think it's not about oh, sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 13:20

I was gonna say, I think that creates another problem because back to the credibility issue, it's gonna be seen as a weakness.

SPEAKER_00 13:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 13:29

Because it's not gonna show any any cohesiveness or any coherency, you know, in anything that's worthwhile. And people who don't agree with us are gonna use that against us, they're gonna exploit that weakness.

SPEAKER_00 13:46

I I I'm gonna I'm gonna demonstrate how how this thought works, all right? Show me one coven that's been a been open who thinks this way for longer than a year, that are actually doing stuff. This brings us back to that whole entire this is where we get that pagan standard time. Do what feels good. We might not even do full moon because I'm not in the mood.

SPEAKER_01 14:10

Well, I mean, if that's the case, I mean, there there are plenty of groups that are still functioning.

SPEAKER_00 14:16

I mean, but there's my question, are they? I mean, I hear them claim this, but where is it? I don't hear them talking about this. I don't hear these pagans out. Hey, I went to full moon last night, and this is what in the world happened, and I had this wonderful experience, and I and I wanted to share. I don't ever hear that. Oh, I went to my to my temple's uh local Sabbath ritual, and here's what we did. I don't ever hear those conversations. I'll hear all about spells and who's got who's aesthetic and who's more original than who.

SPEAKER_01 14:51

Well, yeah, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_00 14:53

But when was the last time you actually actually talked about an actual spiritual connection you actually had?

SPEAKER_01 15:01

You mean with somebody outside of our group?

SPEAKER_00 15:04

Well, when when have you ever heard it actually as a conversation on a podcast? No, in our group, yeah, we talk about ritual all the time.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

I mean, uh I can't say that I've heard it on a podcast. But then again, you know, most of the ones that I've listened to stop listening after a while because it just seems like there's no there's nothing worth listening to.

SPEAKER_00 15:27

Yep. No, because again, every time they try to tell you something, they have to fall back to do what makes you feel good. Humans behave a certain way because we're human, we have to interact. So, yes, if you take a human and put them in isolation, they will go insane. We have to be around other people. To be around other people, we sort of have to have some ethical way of working around each other without harming each other. And doing what feels good does not lead us down that path.

Drawing A Line Without Dogma

SPEAKER_01 16:05

So what um what's the alternative without becoming like a massive dogma, you know, rigid dogma religion?

SPEAKER_00 16:16

I'll be quite honest with you. What I said at the beginning, all right, here's the problem. This thought in magic works great. In magic, that's where it stays. Y'all just stop. Here's the line. When y'all start talking about religious beliefs, you can't always do what feels good. If we're doing what feels good, everybody has paid in and done all this to show up to a Sabbath, and the high priestess, I'm not in the mood. Go home. Bye. I'm doing what feels good.

SPEAKER_01 16:48

I guess, I guess my question, uh aside from the alternative to becoming like, you know, dogma. My question is, you know, we're always telling people, you know, it's I can't tell you how to walk your path.

SPEAKER_00 17:03

Right.

SPEAKER_01 17:03

So where do we draw that line?

SPEAKER_00 17:06

I can't tell you what to believe in. I can sit here and greatly tell you, hey, ethically and morally, this is how in the world I see the pagan societies working in the past. And you know what? For as long as Babylon and these other cities and Rome were around, they followed the same principles we do now. Keep your word, accept responsibility for your actions, try to maintain balance. At no point in any of this concept do you hear do what feels good. You swore that oath, you should uphold that oath to your dying breath. Yes, my belief is as soon as you get on that witness stand and you take that oath, I don't care if you got your hand on a Bible or whatever, you took the oath, you said you were going to tell the truth. Right. You should do that. For pagans, that should not even be a question. All right. It I would be hard pressed for a member of my temple to come to me and actually flat out ask me to lie. I won't do it. Right. Not on a stand after swearing an oath.

SPEAKER_01 18:08

Well no, no.

SPEAKER_00 18:10

That will tell the truth.

SPEAKER_01 18:12

All right. So so basically we we we change the nature, well, not the nature of paganism, but we we we change we change the way we do things by by basically instilling keep your word, honor your elders, da-da-da. And so no, so that no matter what path you're you're walking, whether it be Norse or Voodoo or whatever else, these are the things we adhere to.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

Right. What is wine, and this is why I use the three basic ones the keep your word, accept responsibility for your actions, and try to maintain balance. Right. They're a little, to me, they're a little bit more universal and easier to deal with across traditions.

SPEAKER_01 18:55

Right.

SPEAKER_00 18:56

And I could be wrong. So again, if we got anybody that actually practices voodoo, please tell me. I I think voodoos people in voodoo would agree with us too. Yes, you should keep your word. Yeah, you should accept responsibility. I I think they would agree with us, even outside of what we do, even though the traditions are completely, I think they would. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

SPEAKER_01 19:20

Well, I mean, we could we could be completely off our rockers on this one, too, you know, and you never know.

SPEAKER_00 19:27

Well, I'm sure we're gonna get blasted out of the water on this one.

SPEAKER_01 19:32

Maybe. Who knows?

SPEAKER_00 19:34

Uh because there there is something we're we are slamming one of the core beliefs of uh of a lot of the mainstream Wiccan pagan movement that's out there.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

Well, and and look, the this is the thing. We're not telling anybody you can't practice whatever way feels quote unquote natural for you. What we are saying is that you need to adhere to certain things because we need society to work. Right. We need a cohesiveness, we need something that holds us together.

SPEAKER_00 20:10

Right. Because right now, doing the whole field thing separates us more than it brings us together. I'm not talking about dogma, all right? I'm not talking about us going around going, if you don't do this, the guidance is gonna come. This is not what I'm talking about. Again, when we when you find people sitting there lying in the community, take away your trust from them. It's as simple as that. That's no dogma, no nothing. Either A, they're gonna learn their lesson and start telling the truth, or nobody's gonna listen to them anymore.

SPEAKER_01 20:45

Right.

SPEAKER_00 20:47

This is not complicated to me.

Rebuilding Credibility With Shared Ethics

SPEAKER_01 20:51

Are there are there any other problems that this could address and possibly fix?

SPEAKER_00 20:58

I'm sure it will fix a lot of problems. Because again, this concept right here would fix the whole self-initiation thing, as far as I'm concerned. Because again, it starts to show you're doing what feels good. You're more about stroking your personal ego than doing the work. When you can sit there and claim you're whatever, because it feels good, right, with actually nothing there, that makes us all just it that takes all our credibility and chunks it out the damn door.

SPEAKER_01 21:29

Yeah, and I think that's the biggest problem is credibility at this point.

SPEAKER_00 21:35

Right, because again, here you here you have a problem. I can go out there and find 50 videos of Christians going around videotaping pagans, and how in the world we don't sound consistent about any of our beliefs. All right, and getting confused about it by the minute. And then sitting there going, look, see, how in the world because again, there's my question. How would you start a tribe? If the world stopped tomorrow, how would this, how would your beliefs actually start an actual tribe, a community? How would it actually bring people together to get them to work together?

SPEAKER_01 22:11

Right.

SPEAKER_00 22:12

So we all can survive and move on. I mean, seriously, if if the world fell apart tomorrow, take a moment. My belief system and what I believe, I think would pull people together. I've seen it do it.

SPEAKER_01 22:26

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 22:27

I I think this rips us apart more than anything else.

SPEAKER_01 22:30

Well, then, you know, maybe it's time more people re-examine that part of their practice.

SPEAKER_00 22:37

I really wish people would. You know, I'd like to see this conversation on more people, but hey, so I again, yes, I I think the more traditional community needs to come out going, no, we're we're done with this. Do as you feel good.

unknown 22:53

Right.

SPEAKER_00 22:53

It don't actually work, it's not really part of our practice, pagan practices. It's you being lazy and self-centered and feeding your ego more than it is anything else. And I hope I've proven that by now.

Closing And Where To Connect

SPEAKER_01 23:10

Well, we can only hope, right?

SPEAKER_00 23:12

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 23:13

So you're about ready for some coffee. I'm ready for some coffee. Thanks for listening. Join us next week for another episode. Peg and Coffee Talk is brought to you by Life Temple and Seminary. Please visit us at Life Temple Seminary.org for more information, as well as links to our social media Facebook, Discord, Twitter, YouTube, and Reddit.

SPEAKER_02 23:36

We travel down the strodden path, the maze of stone and mire. Just hold my hand as we pass by a steel blazing fire. And so it is the end of our days, still off with me, it's still born and break. And so it is the end of our days, still off with me, it's still boring,