Coven Access Myths Debunked Today

In this episode, the conversation explores widespread misconceptions about gatekeeping within traditional pagan covens, highlighting how accusations often stem from misunderstandings rather than actual secrecy. As we note, “all our mysteries, all our knowledge, everything is out there on the internet right now” — emphasizing that information is not being hidden, nor are covens guarding exclusive magical texts or secret teachings. Instead, much of the perceived gatekeeping comes from frustration over academic materials, personal expectations, or the belief that covens possess rare, inaccessible books, when in reality most groups rely on affordable or freely available digital sources.

A major theme centers on initiation and the emotional reactions that follow when someone is told they are not yet ready. We point out that being denied initiation is not gatekeeping, but a reflection of readiness, maturity, and the responsibilities tied to priesthood. Many who later accuse covens of toxicity or exclusion had no complaints during their training period — only after hearing “no.” We stress that initiation is not a graduation but a deeply personal, internal milestone that cannot be rushed or mimicked.

Ultimately, the discussion reframes gatekeeping as a misunderstanding of what traditional craft actually requires: personal effort, conceptual integration, and sovereignty. Covens teach structure, ethics, and ritual mechanics — not secret magic. The “puzzle pieces” are already available to everyone; the real work lies in putting them together through study, experience, and self‑development.

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Transcript

Welcome And The Gatekeeping Question

SPEAKER_03 0:15

Welcome to Taking Coffee Talk. If you enjoy our content, please consider donating and following our socials. You have recently had an interesting conversation with a YouTuber.

SPEAKER_00 0:30

Yes, I have.

SPEAKER_03 0:31

And it was regarding gatekeeping, if I'm not wrong.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

No, you're not. It was about gatekeeping.

SPEAKER_03 0:38

Okay. All right. Why don't we start with you telling us what happened? How did this come about?

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Well, I watched this video on gatekeeping. Started out with the same answers about I hear all the time. The same complaints over and over again. So this time I finally got a little bit tired because we not too long ago just did an episode on this subject and I asked an interesting question

What People Think Is Hidden

SPEAKER_00 1:04

here. What do people think we're gatekeeping? Right. We never got any answers. We never really got any answers. All right. So I asked it there. And believe it or not, the answer I got kind of stunned me.

SPEAKER_02 1:17

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

Because I basically, if we understand the position here, I'm talking about, all right? I am a third degree. I do know what's behind door number three.

unknown 1:28

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

Okay. I I'm sorry. It's true. And I'm sitting here telling everybody all our mysteries, all our knowledge, everything is out there on the internet right now. Every last bit of it. Nothing is hidden. As far as magic goes, what magic are we acting? Do y'all actually think we're hiding? Right. The answers finally stunned me. Because basically what I heard was, well, Covens have access to these more expensive books. What? Thank you. I I'm sorry, most Covens are poor. One Coven might have what, one of these thousand dollar books or something. Well, I'm I mean but nobody ever looks at them.

SPEAKER_03 2:10

Yeah, I mean, I I could see the potential to having access to a book that's out of print, you know, that might cost $500 or $1,000 or whatever. But like you said, most groups don't have that kind of funds.

SPEAKER_00 2:27

No. Very few temples actually have that kind of funds, and much less they're going to spend it on a book.

SPEAKER_03 2:34

Right. And if they do, um, it's going to be kept in like an airtight container. Nobody's going to fucking see it.

SPEAKER_00 2:39

No, nobody, no, no, very few people are going to actually get to read it or look through it because again, I don't know how much it costs.

SPEAKER_03 2:45

Right.

SPEAKER_00 2:46

Because again, what what will we do? We will look out for electronic copies, secondary copies. We'll even look for manuscripts where people have studied the main main text and have written about it. And when we're sitting there going, hey, bias in books. If you're telling me about another book, your bias is in there. We're going to try to sift that out. Right. It's not a direct connection. And a lot of these books, a lot of these older books, they're electronically free.

SPEAKER_03 3:14

Yeah. I mean, a lot of them are. Unless there's, you know, unless there's copyright issues.

SPEAKER_00 3:20

Right. I mean, otherwise, I I know a couple of places where you could you do a quick search and find pagan books, philosophy, pagan philosophy books online. Yeah, absolutely. For free or cheap. Absolutely.

Expensive Books And Real-World Access

SPEAKER_00 3:33

The next thing that came up was, and this is the part that really rubbed me the wrong way to a certain extent, was uh they want to know how to put the puzzle together.

SPEAKER_03 3:45

Well, everybody wants to know how to put the puzzle together.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

But me putting the puzzle together for my our temple and all that's one thing. You putting that puzzle together for your tradition is different.

SPEAKER_03 3:58

Right. Well, and and and you know, even if you're not part of a tradition and you're doing your own thing, you are still creating a tradition, you're creating your own personal tradition. So, yeah, you have to define that for yourself.

SPEAKER_00 4:14

We've we've talked about that in the past. You let me give an example. The way we cast circles a particular way in temple, and it's based on all these beliefs that we have and certain concepts. To even understand it, you got to understand multiple concepts, right? Right now, why I use the exact same concepts Ravenwood down in Georgia uses. We both look at this differently. Their theory of casting circles is not the exact same as mine.

SPEAKER_03 4:42

No, and therefore the way of casting is completely different.

SPEAKER_00 4:47

So the books they're using or the gatekeeping is different there than it is here.

SPEAKER_03 4:52

Right. But that's that's specific to the tradition.

SPEAKER_00 4:56

Well, there's the problem because again, the way you hear these people talk about this, about the us gatekeeping, they seem to think we have some big playbook that we're not sharing with everybody. Are you with what I'm saying here? I wish it would make our lives a hell of a lot easier. It would. I mean, again, again, when we go visit Ravenwood, I I I don't ask questions about their circle casting. It's not mine. I'm not gonna get those answers. Right. But it doesn't really bother me because it works for them.

SPEAKER_03 5:28

Right, not my traditional tradition.

SPEAKER_00 5:31

But the problem here is putting that puzzle together, that's your job. That's the point of craft. Exactly, yeah. All right, you got to work with these uh concepts and stuff until they until you sort of internalize them. Now, I'm not trying to be mean here, all right. Now, I am a third degree, you are a second. Yeah, yeah. All right, me and you are married, and you listen to me talk about some of these concepts nonstop. I do, yeah. And the majority of times you look at me and go, uh, just a second degree, I'm gonna go back out this door, or I heard what you said, I can't.

SPEAKER_03 6:07

Well, and and also, I mean, you know, yeah, of course, I have access to third degree materials, but without proper training, without without understanding those things, they're useless.

SPEAKER_00 6:23

Well, my point, well, my point there is you're still working on certain concepts I gathered a long time ago.

SPEAKER_03 6:30

Right.

SPEAKER_00 6:31

And then there's no offense there, or it's not an insult to you. It's just where you are compared to me. Right. That's not gatekeeping. No, it's not. You're internalizing those things. So, I mean, that didn't make no sense to me.

Academic Papers, Internet, And AI Tools

SPEAKER_00 6:48

The last thing they the last thing most people were complaining about was access. Access to this information.

SPEAKER_03 6:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:56

The people ain't got access. They limitations and all this. I hate to be this way, though. If you're on if you're getting snaps, you can even get a government phone that has internet.

SPEAKER_02 7:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:07

Internet's not that hard to get nowadays. I mean, Starbucks, McDonald's. I mean, I've seen videos of people playing their Nintendo outside of Walmart using their web or Wi-Fi. All right. So that to me is not an excuse. And then sitting there saying that you can't understand or people have a hard time understanding some of these academic papers. Yeah, I understand. They are dry, they are boring, they are hard to read. But what you do is you read them, go look up all the words, then go back and read it again. Make it even worse is we don't even have to do that now. You got AI.

SPEAKER_03 7:47

Right. AI can summarize it for you.

SPEAKER_00 7:50

And break it all down. And make it even worse, you don't even have to have a subscription. Most of them you can do free. Yeah. And there's so many you can rotate from one to another all day long. Sure.

SPEAKER_03 8:01

So I still don't understand what it is. And and the thing about academic papers, they're kind of like it's kind of like legalese. What I refer to as legalese. When you read a legal document, it's full of all this mumbo jumbo and all these technical terms and stuff that you don't typically deal with on a daily basis. So you're not going to completely understand them. But like you said, we have resources now.

unknown 8:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 8:30

Are they completely inaccurate? No, but they can give you a good idea.

SPEAKER_00 8:34

Uh exactly. To start working with the concept.

SPEAKER_02 8:36

Right.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

Because the next step after that is actually talking to people about the concept. You know, hey, I was thinking about, I was thinking about this concept as above, so below. This is what I read. Here's what I think. What do you think?

SPEAKER_03 8:50

Mm-hmm. And quite honestly, all of our all of the stuff that we use in our classes, it's already out there somewhere.

SPEAKER_00 8:59

Somewhere.

SPEAKER_03 9:00

We just we put it in a format that we use. That's I'm that's it.

SPEAKER_00 9:05

The last problem with this whole gatekeeping thing is one thing I never thought about having to address.

Denied Initiation And Grudge Narratives

SPEAKER_00 9:15

The ones that don't get initiated. Right. It's funny to me when I'm sitting here thinking about this. Why everybody claims all traditional Covens are gatekeeping? And it finally dawned on me. It's the ones that don't get initiated.

SPEAKER_03 9:31

You think they're holding a grudge?

SPEAKER_00 9:33

I think they're holding a grudge. We don't initiate them. Suddenly we're gatekeeping, we're violent, we we're we're insulting, we're we're toxic, and uh everything in the world because we said no.

SPEAKER_03 9:47

Well, look.

SPEAKER_00 9:48

All right, all right. Now wait a minute.

SPEAKER_03 9:50

With that said, okay, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 9:52

It's funny. With that, it's funny because they might be in your temple for a whole year before they're told, no, we won't initiate you yet. Now you were there the whole year, you never complained, you never said you felt like you were being mistreated or anything like that. Then suddenly, now you're coming out. Oh, they're mean, they're they're they're you know, they're priests' toxic masculinity and blah. I have to ask the pagan community now. Did y'all ever think about looking at these people going, are you sure it's not you? Are you sure they didn't look at you and go, maybe you're not there yet?

SPEAKER_03 10:28

Here's the thing here's the thing behind that, all right. And we've talked about this before. It's very clear from the beginning, from the very first meeting, nine times out of ten, it's already mentioned. Just because you take classes does not guarantee you're gonna be initiated.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

That's the first words out of my mouth. Normally the first words out of my mouth when I mean for somebody.

SPEAKER_03 10:51

And if it doesn't happen at that first meeting, it happens on the first day of class. Right. It is clearly stated. Just because you come and take these classes does not mean you are guaranteed initiation.

SPEAKER_00 11:07

Initiation is not a graduation thing.

SPEAKER_03 11:09

No, it's not, it's a very personal thing, it's it's very internal.

SPEAKER_00 11:15

And it's us saying that you can handle the responsibilities of this degree, right?

SPEAKER_03 11:20

So then I'm here's the bad why do people still act surprised when they when it happens, when they get denied?

SPEAKER_00 11:27

What why my my point, my my point is is when these people come up and start talking about how toxic these uh covens are, why not ask them, are you sure it's not you? Right. I hate to ask that question. We're trying to put out people that are qualified to be priests and priestesses. All right. If you go up to a traditionally trained witch, a second degree witch, expecting counseling, you're gonna get somewhat professional counseling. Right. You're not going to get you talking to whatever, you know, Willow across the street who's going to whatever. And but I don't understand this. I don't either.

SPEAKER_03 12:07

So again, especially when when they're they're told when when it happens and it has happened, and it will continue to be. It has happened. When people are denied, it's we give them options. We never just toss them out on the street, we never just tell them you can't go any further. We just tell them we don't we we don't feel you're ready for this responsibility yet.

unknown 12:36

Right.

SPEAKER_03 12:36

And we tell them what they can do to get to that point, right?

SPEAKER_00 12:40

Revisit the classes, keep on coming to ritual, commit, talk to us, have conversations, let's let's hear some of these ideas and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_03 12:49

Right. So what is it? Are they just are they not mature enough when they can't handle a temporary no? See, then there's my question. It's it's a question.

SPEAKER_00 12:59

But I hate to be here's what makes it worse. This behavior that you see afterwards only enhightens to us that you're not ready. Right. You can't handle a temporary no and go off the handle. Well, there's my proof I was right to make the correct decision. But my point here on this is I never hear anybody in the pagan community go, Well, could it be the other person's fault? Why do I always believe that these how can all these covens be gatekeeping? How can all these covens be toxic?

unknown 13:33

Right.

SPEAKER_03 13:34

Are you are you with me? Yeah, you never hear those conversations. I I see it all the time on Reddit where people are talking bad about covens and groups and you know the organized part of things, right?

SPEAKER_02 13:44

Right.

SPEAKER_03 13:45

And they say, Oh, well, this is you know, it's I've never had a good experience. Well, you you had a bad experience with one group. One group, or you know, you might have heard rumors about some other groups.

SPEAKER_00 13:57

Right. Well, and again, it doesn't help when we have those people that we've told no to leave the temple, go out and just start badmouthing us. Well, no, for no reason other than we said no. I understand what that person feels. Yeah, they I I can understand that person that gets told no.

SPEAKER_03 14:13

Well, yeah, it's that whole time and effort, you know. It's I I've put a lot of I've put a lot of myself into these classes, and you know, I feel like I'm ready. And yeah, no, I get it.

SPEAKER_00 14:24

Hey, I I get it too. I really do. But I also understand from the other side what we're looking for. And here's the bad thing about what we're looking for. If we tell you, you're just gonna mimic those behaviors. Well, that was we need to see them emerge naturally, right?

SPEAKER_03 14:42

When people ask us, what are you looking for in a student? What are you looking for in a priest or priestess? We can't tell you that. No, it's gonna change the case. It's not that we exactly you because if we need you to get there right. If we tell you, then you're going to mimic those behaviors when you're around us, and you're still not gonna be ready.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

I mean, I don't get me wrong. Do do priests and priestesses make mistakes? Do we sometimes elevate people we shouldn't? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 15:13

It happens. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 15:15

I'm not saying I'm not saying that I've never had a student that might have fooled me, got their degree, and went off half cocked. But again, we try our best to do everything we can to make sure we put out credible people that know what they're talking about that aren't going to hurt other people. Right. Or make matters worse in the long run.

SPEAKER_03 15:34

Well, and I I think even even the ones that got their degree and and went off and did whatever, I don't think they ever went out with the intention of hurting anybody. I mean, we've never heard any so I I still feel like we've you and uh the other priestesses and the other leaders that we've had in the past, you know, Lord Men, Lady Alicia, I still feel like we've all put out pretty decent priests and priestesses.

SPEAKER_00 16:07

Over the years. You know? Because I I'm still back to the whole gatekeeping the magic thing. Hey, news splash, we do not teach magic. No, we don't teach magic. My elder took that completely out of our lecture series before I came along. Right. Because for us it's not about the magic. Well well, it's not about the magic. Plus, is why? I don't have to. Everything's out there. There's billions of books. You want to learn magic? Go for it. Sure, yeah. There's thousands of books out there that they're all a lot of them are correct, a lot of them have good ideas and stuff like that. Why do I need to teach you? Hate to be this way. AI, even the free version of AI. You can type in, hey, I want a spell for something. It will generate a spell for you.

SPEAKER_03 16:54

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

So I'm back to where's the gatekeeping? Where's the gatekeeping really? I don't think it is. I think it's everybody's perception.

SPEAKER_03 17:05

Well, and that's I mean, that's another thing. Why do people automatically side with those people who are making all these outrageous claims? Why don't they just automatically oh you're right, assume blah blah blah.

SPEAKER_00 17:19

Oh, and we'll completely ignore that this this coven or this temple's been active and around for 50 years. Right. But this one person came out and didn't get initiated, and uh apparently they're toxic.

SPEAKER_03 17:31

Right. What honestly, I think that does more to reveal and and and expose the entitlement that some people have nowadays. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:44

I I want spiritual authority with or the I want the authority without the responsibility. We're not really gatekeeping anything, we're not hiding anything. No, we're not gatekeeping. And honestly, all right. There's no big rule book out there, no, there's no you know, whatsoever that we all share. I I'm I'm sorry, it it that's not real. That's some fantasy y'all seem to have.

SPEAKER_03 18:09

Well, again, if there was, it would make this a hell of a lot easier. It would. Because we could all follow the same exact standards, the same exact protocols, the same exact everything, and there would be no question about anything, but it doesn't work that way.

SPEAKER_00 18:24

And

“Secret Teachers” And Paywall Red Flags

SPEAKER_00 18:25

and before y'all get on my case about well, what about all these people online that claim to have secret knowledge and want us to pay for all these classes? That should be your giveaway. Those people if they are sitting or conning you.

SPEAKER_03 18:39

Yeah, those people are charlatans. Right. They are the flat out they they are the definition of a charlatan.

SPEAKER_00 18:48

I I'm sorry, the information they're going to give you is literally the same information you can get out of freaking having an AI search for pagan content on the subjects.

SPEAKER_03 18:59

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 18:59

For free.

SPEAKER_03 19:01

And if it's for if it's for a card reading, honey, let me tell you, those are those are personal interpretations of what of what the cards quote unquote say. It's what they're seeing in the cards. It's a personal interpretation. Don't pay for that. Not you know, not some not some outrageous sum of money for that.

SPEAKER_00 19:21

No. I want to sit there. Hey, if you're going to one of the card reading psychic fairs things, and go for it because that's normally for charity, it's fun. You I don't think these things are serious.

SPEAKER_03 19:33

Yeah, go for it, have fun with it. Again, look, I went to one and I wound up reading the reader's cards.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

I mean come on, have some fun here. Yes, those people that sit there and act like they got some big secret or something. Nobody else, they're probably conning you.

SPEAKER_03 19:54

Probably. I would say 90% of the time they're conning you.

SPEAKER_00 19:58

At most traditionalists, here's what in the world really happens when we're in those group settings. We will sit there and grin our our faces off, but never say anything. Right. We will have that devious look on our face, like this is freaking hilarious, or yeah, I understand this, but we won't ever say anything. We won't sit there and oh yeah, I understand this mystery. Because by the time you understand the mysteries, you realize that's unnecessary.

SPEAKER_02 20:25

Right.

SPEAKER_00 20:26

Here's the point: you have to work with these concepts, you have to go over them over and over again for to actually understand them. You have to internalize this stuff. Once you do, it's gonna seem easy. It's going to get to the point where you're gonna be sitting back going, I can't stop seeing this over these behaviors over and over again.

SPEAKER_03 20:48

Right.

SPEAKER_00 20:49

It will become obvious. It will become so obvious. You're gonna be sitting back going, why can't anybody else see this? Right. That's the real thing going on on us traditionalists. We're sitting back going, why can't y'all see it? It's as obvious as it is there. Once you work through it, once you understand it, there it is.

Wisdom Takes Experience, Not Instructions

SPEAKER_00 21:09

I can't transmit that until you do it, you're never gonna understand it. There's there's a difference between wisdom and knowledge. Well, that's you know wisdom takes time.

SPEAKER_03 21:18

Yeah, I was gonna say it's kind of like our mysteries. There are some mysteries we can flat out tell you, and then there's some you just have to experience. If we tell you the ones that you have to experience, it's gonna make no sense. No, you have to experience it and work with it to understand it.

SPEAKER_00 21:36

I mean, because if you imagine it this way, if you can't sit there and explain something to an alien who has no idea of what it's like to fall in love, have that special moment, right? You know what I'm talking about, right? And until you experience we describe it all over the place, but until you experience you ain't got a clue. It's just this vague feeling.

SPEAKER_03 21:57

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 21:57

Until you experience it as an adult.

SPEAKER_03 22:01

I know. It's uh I mean it's like when you have that talk with your kids, they're not gonna understand it until it happens.

SPEAKER_00 22:11

Don't understand until it actually happens. That's a universal mystery.

SPEAKER_03 22:15

I'm sorry. And that's not gatekeeping. That's not gatekeeping. Not by any of the people.

SPEAKER_00 22:22

We're not gatekeeping. Stop. All right. Can we just drop this conversation from now on? Can we drop the whole entire gatekeeping thing and just stop?

SPEAKER_03 22:31

It would be nice.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

All right. Because again, at the end of the day, you not being able to translate college grade papers and stuff like that is not gatekeeping.

SPEAKER_03 22:42

Honey, I used to write college grade papers and I still couldn't translate them. If that tells you anything. I mean.

SPEAKER_00 22:50

I mean, so again, I I I might have finally got an answer to my question, except that the answer really is we're really not. It's sort of more like everybody's just complaining to complain. Are they thinking there's something there we're not telling or doing when there's not? Here's the big thing. All right, I'm telling you right now, all the puzzle pieces are out there. All you gotta do is just find them.

SPEAKER_03 23:16

They are, yep.

SPEAKER_00 23:17

And you just gotta put it together where you understand it.

SPEAKER_03 23:21

I mean, there I know I can think of two sites right offhand where you can find a wealth of information, papers that have been copied, books that you can find digital copies of.

SPEAKER_00 23:36

Uh but there's a couple of places you can find like five different pages pages, uh papers on just as above, so below.

SPEAKER_03 23:44

Yeah. But different thoughts and right, but that's my point. It's out there. Take your time, do some, do some searching. The information's there if you really want it.

SPEAKER_00 23:55

I mean, i if you can only do 15 minutes a day, 15 minutes is better than no minutes. Right. So again, the time restraints and all this, five minutes of researching and doing stuff actually might be more helpful than sitting there for two hours.

SPEAKER_03 24:10

Mm-hmm. Why you can read just Well, I was gonna say, why you got a chance to think about it? Right, you're not overloading yourself for two hours looking for something and not retaining anything. You're doing shorter spurts, and it's uh, you know, it's perfect for retaining more information.

SPEAKER_00 24:27

And it gives you a chance to think about what you just read in a smaller section and even go back and dissect it.

SPEAKER_03 24:33

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 24:33

The the answers I've gotten so far on what we're gatekeeping isn't gatekeeping.

SPEAKER_03 24:39

No, but uh honestly, when when when you sent me when you sent me this and and you said all you said was I've got an answer. And I was like, what? What so I was anxious the answer. Yeah, I was anxious to do this episode just so I could find out what happened.

SPEAKER_00 25:01

This is what happened. This is what they this is basically what I heard from everybody. I mean, I appreciate them, and everybody was nice, but uh this this isn't gatekeeping, all right? Yeah, some people use that do the whole little, oh, you gotta do my class. I know something you don't as a power trip. Yeah, people do those. I'm sorry, when people do those, and when people do those, especially to another traditionalist, we sort of look at them go, huh, yeah, we know this behavior. Yes, dear. Bless your heart. We we we know you know them. All right, sit down now. Look, shut up.

SPEAKER_03 25:36

That's a red flag for anybody, for anybody. If somebody comes up to you and says, I have this information, but you have to do this, this, and this to get it, then that's a red flag.

SPEAKER_00 25:49

Right.

What Training Actually Covers In Practice

SPEAKER_00 25:50

Look, don't get me wrong. We're sitting there, we sit there and we go, okay, you you show up and we go, first of all, completion of classes does not guaranteed initiation. The only thing our first degree classes teach you is how we function together as a temple. Right. And that's it. It's just the mechanics of our temple and our tradition.

SPEAKER_03 26:10

Right. It's how we expect you to behave as a representative of our group, it's how we expect you to function within sacred space, right?

SPEAKER_00 26:21

And it's it's how to uh and and how to work with other traditions outside of ours, right, and how to behave and maintain respect for each other. Right.

SPEAKER_03 26:33

So this is this is all we teach that you know we yes, we teach ritual mechanics. Okay. Well, we have to because at first degree you're we do ritual, you are expected to do ritual, you're expected to participate, yes. But for the most part, we're just teaching you how to function.

SPEAKER_00 26:51

That's it. That's it. And and again, that's just first degree, right?

SPEAKER_03 26:57

But at second degree, it's still more of the same thing. This is how we expect you to act as a second degree. This is what we expect you to be able to do as a second degree, right?

SPEAKER_00 27:10

And and here's a here's more about what we're doing and why we're doing it. Right. So there's now that you've gotten these basic concepts, now let's add some more to it and move on.

SPEAKER_03 27:21

Right. So I'm sorry. No, there's no gatekeeping here.

SPEAKER_00 27:26

No, and again, just because you're denied initiation does not mean the people are gatekeeping, it doesn't mean people are being mean.

SPEAKER_03 27:36

No, and it doesn't mean they're being abusive either. No, it doesn't mean they're toxic.

SPEAKER_00 27:42

No, it just means you're not ready for this yet.

SPEAKER_03 27:46

Just accept it and and be humble about it and continue your growth and your journey and your I mean, just worry about you walking your path.

SPEAKER_00 27:58

Yeah, keep worried about you walking your path.

SPEAKER_03 28:00

Right.

SPEAKER_00 28:01

Because again, that's like all this gatekeeping I did here about to me and what I heard. I'm not saying this is what they were saying, but from the way I heard it, these people want me to walk their path for them.

SPEAKER_03 28:12

Yeah, we're not gonna do that.

SPEAKER_00 28:13

And I'm sorry, that's a big no-no in paganism in our thoughts. We can't do that. The idea of us being sovereign entities is more important, right?

SPEAKER_03 28:23

And and

Sovereignty, Group Ritual, And Voting With Feet

SPEAKER_03 28:24

and you know, honestly, and I'm not gonna say too much more about this, but that's one thing that gets me about the organized side of this. People say, Well, I don't like organized religion because I'm not an individual. Uh yes, you are. Yes, you are. The majority of covens that I know, they expect you to do a certain thing a certain way when you're when you're together.

SPEAKER_00 28:47

Well, see, here's what messes all this.

SPEAKER_03 28:49

Of your home is your path. That's you.

SPEAKER_00 28:53

A lot of people seem to have this problem here, and I I understand where it kind of gets confusing. All right, Christianity actually preaches collectivism, it honestly does. Yes, it is a very collectivism. You it has external authority, you have to give up to that authority and obey it. Craft is the complete opposite. We are all about the individual rights and liberties and own side. That's what we're talking about. When we say our own sovereignty, right? So yes, individuals.

SPEAKER_03 29:26

So, yes, we expect to in the we expect a certain way when we come together as a group, but that's it. We don't expect you to take that home with you if that's not your particular way of doing things, right? Right. Everybody's got their own path. We just do something together in the same fashion when we come together so that everybody's on the same page.

SPEAKER_00 29:51

Right. So there's a better chance of worshiping and energy together and fellowship there that brings something to that that doesn't there when you're by yourself sometimes.

SPEAKER_03 30:03

Right. We're not asking you to change anything.

SPEAKER_00 30:06

No. I mean, am I going to sit there and tell you, hey, will going through these classes and doing this stuff change you? Yes. Sure it will. But it's you doing it. You we're not making you do it, you're doing it to yourself.

SPEAKER_03 30:18

No, and and we uh we are not forcing you to walk a path that you didn't volunteer for.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

No, we have this concept. You vote with your feet, you walked in but on your own free volition, you can walk out the same way.

SPEAKER_03 30:34

Yep. If at any time you're not comfortable or you don't like it, or something doesn't sit right with you, we invite you to come back anytime you like, but please feel free to leave. We don't want to force you to stay.

SPEAKER_00 30:48

No, and we're not gonna sit there and badmouth you after you leave out online or anybody else or maybe absolutely not.

SPEAKER_03 30:54

You know how many people we've had walk out of class? I mean, come on.

SPEAKER_00 31:00

Come on. I have started I have started the class of 10 people, and before we get to lecture three, half of them are gone.

SPEAKER_03 31:08

Absolutely. And not once are my feelings hurt. Nope. No, and not once did we badmouth any of those students.

SPEAKER_00 31:16

No.

SPEAKER_03 31:17

There's no need to. It wasn't for them. All right.

Closing, Next Week, And Links

SPEAKER_03 31:22

You ready for some coffee? Yeah, I think I think we've beat that horse. So Thanks for listening. Join us next week for another episode. Pegan Coffee Talk is brought to you by Life Temple and Seminary. Please visit us at Life Temple Seminary.org for more information, as well as links to our social media. Facebook, Discord, Twitter, YouTube, and Reddit.

SPEAKER_01 31:45

We travel down this trodden path, the maze of stone and mire. Just hold my hand as we pass by a steel blazing pyro. And so it is the end of our days to walk with me till morning breaks. And so it is the end of our days to walk with me till morning break.