Returning to Structured Pagan Practice

In this episode of Pagan Coffee Talk, we explore one of the most pivotal shifts in modern pagan history: the 1990s collapse of structured teaching, coven mentorship, and elder‑led learning. Drawing directly from lived experience, the conversation examines how charlatans, ego‑driven “gurus,” and widespread mistrust pushed many traditional covens underground—removing the very guidance new practitioners relied on, and how this shift created decades of confusion, contradictory information, and a generation of seekers left to navigate paganism through FAQs, blogs, and social media instead of trained teachers and established temples.

The discussion also highlights the long‑term effects of rejecting elders, including the rise of misinformation, the struggle to identify legitimate teachers, and the widening divide between traditionalists and eclectic solitaries. Yet despite the challenges, the episode ends on a hopeful note: more pagans are beginning to recognize the value of structured learning, ethical mentorship, and community‑based practice. As the pendulum swings back toward organization, we reflect on how covens, temples, and trained clergy can once again help rebuild clarity, trust, and meaningful spiritual growth within modern paganism.

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Welcome And Community Support

SPEAKER_01 0:15

Welcome to Peggy Coffee Talk. If you enjoy our content, please consider donating and following our socials.

The 1990s Fear Of Teachers

SPEAKER_02 0:24

Somewhere in the 90s, something something happened, and I don't know what happened. I I don't know what caused this thing in the pagan community where beforehand it was like in the 80s and stuff. If you sort of remember, it was less about a questioning authority, and everybody wanted a guru, and everybody wanted to find a temple, and everybody wanted to find a covenant, a teacher. Then suddenly in the 90s, that all stopped. All right. I understand why some of it stopped, but just this complete lack of everybody seemed to become deathly afraid of finding a teacher or asking about teachers or anything like that. You're guru.

SPEAKER_01 1:06

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:06

Now let's admit it, by the time the 90s came around, we had charlatans. We had a lot of charlatans back in the day, where in the world you would pay an awful lot of money, start to take the classes, and realize it's the same bowl that you could buy for 20 bucks and read out a Scott Cunningham book.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:27

But it became a problem, and it got to the point to where literally we threw all the everybody threw all the teachers away. We're not going to listen to the elders anymore. We're not going to be parts of temples. Because you remember this, the the backlash between traditional witchcraft who were this closed covens and traditions started to get a whole lot more backlash. There was better teachers and gatekeeping and all this other stuff. All this came up.

SPEAKER_01 1:57

Well, and I think a lot of that, I think a lot of that was due to the carn artists that were so prevalent at that time. And, you know, people pretending to be legitimate when all they were after was sex or you know, money or whatever else.

SPEAKER_02 2:17

Or it was a big ego trip and stuff like that. Back in these days, it's not like we all didn't go through this at some point. All right. We all found those people and they were there. I'm not saying they weren't real.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

And they still are. I mean, they're still out there, but it was for some reason it was like really prevalent back in the 90s.

SPEAKER_02 2:43

Yes. I mean, it you could you walk down the street and trip over a so-called guru at the it seemed like at the time. All right. Everybody was, and everybody was talking, and everybody was writing books, and every and then you start looking at the material and you're like, well, did we give up on certain did we give certain standards up to have this more colloquial or more worldly belief systems?

SPEAKER_01 3:13

Well, then let me ask you, um, since we know it was pretty widespread, and what was the response of traditional craft to all of this?

SPEAKER_02 3:25

Well, I certain temples did certain things. Our elder basically told us to withdraw from society hoping it would burn itself out so the traditionalists could come back out into the public. But I don't see where in the world that happened either.

SPEAKER_01 3:43

Well, no.

SPEAKER_02 3:44

So I do because I saw a lot of tr I saw a lot of traditionalist groups start to put out more of the start to change their websites and stuff like this. And even our elder Lord men, he saw the same pattern where in the world certain more traditional covens were slowly changing what was said on their websites to reflect more of what was going on in the community. Well, and he took this as well, we're just going to let we're just going to continue to lie to them and let them believe on this stuff until they burn themselves out.

SPEAKER_01 4:15

Well, I think there was also a response. The well, I think the response for some was to simply disappear.

SPEAKER_02 4:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 4:26

Not completely, but websites were taken down, phone numbers were no longer published, no no email information was out there. You couldn't you couldn't find them.

SPEAKER_02 4:40

For all intents and purposes, there was a period in time where all the traditionalist covens went underground. And I'm not saying it still ain't happening. There's still a lot of traditional covens that are sort of back into the woods, and you you have to really find them to find them. You actually have to actually hunt them to find them and become parts of them. I know temples that have been up for 50 years, they still ain't updated their website just because of this. Because they don't want people, they don't want the SEO stuff. They don't want a thousand people to be bombarding them all the time because the traditions don't work like that per se.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

Right.

SPEAKER_02 5:21

And we did. We stepped back. All right. I mean, how I will sit here and ask, how many podcasts are actually from real traditionals and real traditional spaces, you know, and and that did not do the whole open mind and open thing and the whole Wicca thing. Are you with me? There was that in the community.

Traditional Groups Go Underground

SPEAKER_02 5:46

We withdrew, and now we're sitting back and we're looking at people with all these people that said we didn't need teachers, and now I keep on seeing on all their website, so your tradition ain't working for you, so this ain't working for you, so that ain't working for you. But y'all gave up the teachers. You you didn't want, and now you're complaining about it, but this is what y'all wanted.

SPEAKER_01 6:07

Well, and there was also a period of time where classes were charged, you had to pay to take the classes.

SPEAKER_02 6:14

Yes. And and again, the reason you paid to take the class is because a lot of pagans would not donate to their temples or give tithes to their temple because it was too Christian.

SPEAKER_01 6:27

Right. We still run into that, but somewhere along the line, we stopped charging for classes again and just started off asking for donations.

SPEAKER_02 6:39

When you start charging for classes, it it brings in this different narrative, I think. All right, because as soon as I pay for it, as soon as I pay for it, yes, I'm going to expect to get initiated. So we're going to make you pay for classes, then look at you, go, well, you might not get initiated.

SPEAKER_01 6:58

Right. All right.

SPEAKER_02 6:59

Because a lot of people get upset about that because they're not looking at it, hey, I just gained a bunch of knowledge for free, and now I'm going to use that knowledge to go start another temple. Not what they think. They're just, well, I I should have gotten my first degree. I should have been part of you. I should have gotten that silver spoon in my mouth. I paid for it.

SPEAKER_01 7:19

Right.

SPEAKER_02 7:20

I think once we start putting price tags on there, we have a problem. Because I I mean, I'm back to if it's that important to get the information out for everybody to know, why are you charging for your books? Which is more important, you making a profit or getting the information out.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

Right. I'm just curious, do you think that doing that helped rebuild trust? Or do you think it created new problems, or do you think it just didn't do anything at all?

SPEAKER_02 7:50

I want to say it did all three. For some people, it put trust back. For some people it didn't do a thing. And for some people, yeah, it did the complete opposite. Oh, they that now they're just gonna bring you in and start, you know, yanking you around until after the fact. And by that time you're too far deep in or whatever, it's a cult type of mentality. I I think where some people might have took this. Because again, I'm not saying there's still not this divide in the community between the traditionalist and the whatever you want to call them.

SPEAKER_01 8:25

Right.

SPEAKER_02 8:26

All right, the the the solitaires, the eclectic, whatever. There's still a riff there.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

Sure, there is. I don't I don't think that's ever gonna go away.

SPEAKER_02 8:35

It well, it's not ever gonna completely go away. I mean, I wish it would. I don't see too many traditionalist sitting here really rallying against these other people. You're just saying, hey, this is what we believe.

SPEAKER_01 8:47

Right.

SPEAKER_02 8:48

And from my point of view, and yes, I could be wrong, I feel like as traditionalists get attacked more than the other way around.

SPEAKER_01 8:56

Do you think this is a long-term effect? I mean, do you think it's gonna I really you think it's just gonna stick around?

SPEAKER_02 9:02

I'm not sure. I'm really not sure. People change, generations change, different circumstances.

Paying For Classes And Trust

SPEAKER_02 9:10

People used to not think that for some reason that you had to be a witch or connected to some secret society to do spells. Spells was a common day thing that the everyday person did. And now we just look at it and oh no, you gotta be special. I'm sorry, read Mark Twain. All right. Let me tell you, them boys that he writes about, oh, one of them's trying to do spells to get rid of warts all the freaking time, and that's all he talks about in one whole entire book. It's a spell, right? A common person, right? And now, what do we think? Oh no, no, you must be a witch to cast a spell.

SPEAKER_01 9:50

Yeah, I'm just wondering, when did when did that happen? Because I mean what turned the tables on that?

SPEAKER_02 9:56

Well, on that, I I believe what turned the table on that, I believe that was Christianity and the whole witch trial thing and all that because they kept on trying to connect that you had to be a member of the devil to have these powers.

SPEAKER_01 10:08

So you think that so you think like the whole satanic panic in the 80s was partially responsible?

SPEAKER_02 10:13

No, no, no, no, no. I I'm talking about no, I'm talking about the witch trials in Salem. I'm saying those are responsible because they started this whole entire thing is you have to be a witch or uh a loyal servant of Satan to have these powers, to do these spells. Okay. And before that, it was an everyday spell. Everybody knew spells, it was all folklore and stuff like this, and that's why some spells seem to be the opposite of other spells if you go to a different area.

SPEAKER_01 10:45

Right.

SPEAKER_02 10:46

But again, that's where that change started. I didn't say it was prevalent, but that's where I think that started. That that thought there that you had to be a soldier of Satan to have these powers, right?

SPEAKER_01 10:58

Okay. Well, getting back to getting back to the teacher aspect of this, we've sort of touched on it, but how has how has the perception of teachers and covens and all of that, how do you think it's affected how knowledge is transmitted within paganism?

SPEAKER_02 11:22

I think it just it makes it harder because there's such contradictory information a lot of times. And I don't mean to be this rude or anything like that. It takes a little age to start to realize what those contradictions are and how to fix them. You got a little you gotta have a little dust on your bottle to start to understand some of this stuff.

SPEAKER_01 11:45

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_02 11:46

I I mean, and I don't mean to be mean, but when you're a child, you actually think like a child. And and it when I think about the way I used to think about when I was a teenager, oh my God, I was an idiot.

SPEAKER_01 11:58

Right. I mean, we all were really, but you know.

SPEAKER_02 12:01

All right. I mean, and I know at the time I thought just like everybody else, nope, I got it all figured out. No, you don't. I, you know, I I'm 50 something years old. I still ain't got it all figured out.

SPEAKER_01 12:13

I know, right? God, if we did, it'd be so much easier.

SPEAKER_02 12:17

Oh god, it would. But age does a little maturity does change your viewpoint on some of this stuff. Yeah, those contradictions seem a little bit less and less as you get older.

SPEAKER_01 12:28

Well, I was gonna say it

When Spells Became “Only For Witches”

SPEAKER_01 12:30

kind of helps um pull things together for you. Yes. Because you're able to you're able to put some of those pieces together.

SPEAKER_02 12:37

Well, I can sit here and say, here's what I believe in and why I believe in them. And these are my touchstones. This is where this is where I stand, this is where I hang my hat, whatever. But I have reasons for them.

SPEAKER_01 12:52

Right.

SPEAKER_02 12:53

I'm not saying that reason makes sense to anybody else but me.

SPEAKER_01 12:57

Right.

SPEAKER_02 12:59

I am the type of person, I sort of like more rational reasons than anything else. So the majority of my reasons I think is pretty rational. Sometimes it's not.

SPEAKER_01 13:07

I was gonna say, and ultimately it really doesn't have to make sense to anybody else. When we ask people, especially our students, what do you believe in? Why do you believe it? We don't want you to try and convince us that your way's the right way. Right way. We just want to know that you actually believe in what you believe in. And what you say you believe in.

SPEAKER_02 13:32

And right, that there is some self-logic in that absolutely that where where your belief supports itself in and of it.

SPEAKER_01 13:42

Right, because eventually, somewhere down the line, someone will come for you in some conversation. Someone will come for you, and you have to be able to stand on what you say you believe in.

SPEAKER_02 13:54

Right, and be able to explain it. And everybody keeps on thinking right answer on this stuff.

SPEAKER_01 13:59

Yeah, there are no right answers.

SPEAKER_02 14:02

And what did we learn from our teacher? There are no right answers. We're just wanting to know what you will stand for and what you won't, right? What you actually believe in, and where's that logic when you are challenged by somebody who don't really believe are gonna push back? How are you going to defend your? I don't want to say, but I don't want to necessarily say the thin, but what's your argument for your side?

SPEAKER_01 14:26

Right. So, with that said, this is one of the things that I think without like without a proper teaching structure, this is one of those concepts that people miss out on. Yes. What else do you think people miss out on?

SPEAKER_02 14:45

They miss out on the actual arguments the majority of the time. Because here here's what I'll say is when I'll go out there and try to communicate on Reddit, YouTube, whatever, make comments, people get more self-defensive and don't actually listen to the argument.

SPEAKER_01 15:02

Okay. And so in this case, the argument is not like a TIFF between two people. You're thinking more like debate arguments.

SPEAKER_02 15:12

More like debate arguments, right? I give you an example, all right. I've recently made a post on someone who said, well, you know, this guy made up the whole triple goddess thing. And I'm like, well, yeah, the way he worded it and all that, yes, in Celtic mythology, that really never existed, that concept in and of itself, right? Like what he's talking about. But the concept of a maiden goddess, a mother goddess, and a crone goddess has always existed.

SPEAKER_01 15:42

Right.

SPEAKER_02 15:43

And women's progressions through those three deities through their story of life have always been seen in this pattern of behavior. That this pattern of maiden, mother, and crone has been seen throughout life. We still have the same

Why Mentorship Makes Beliefs Coherent

SPEAKER_02 16:00

concept over on the God side of what is it, Page, Warrior, and Hermit. Right. It's just the stages of life, and that pagans didn't recognize that at all is incomparable. So I don't believe this person just pulled this concept out of their bud. They pulled this concept, they looked at this, said, Here's this concept I see in a lot of pagan religions or beliefs from around the world. Here, let me name this and see what people say about it.

SPEAKER_01 16:27

Right.

SPEAKER_02 16:28

And everybody's more worried about what they're naming it or how it's called or whatever, and not looking at the concept of what's going on here. But when you start to point that out, instead of, oh, I see what in the world you're talking about, no, you're misogynist, or you're this, or you're wrong, or you're I only had one person that went, okay, wait a minute, I sort of see what you're talking about here. And even mentioned it often that yeah, they saw it, but they didn't see it at the same time. And some people brought it up into four stages instead of three. My argument still is is that that process was still there, it was still seen.

SPEAKER_01 17:05

Right. Well, then let me ask you this. So for anybody, say somebody's been burned by fake teachers or been hurt by teachers, and now they're skeptical about all structured learning and all that other stuff. What would you say to someone about that? Like, is there is there a way to distinguish between genuine people and potential predators? And when I say predators, I'm not talking strictly sexual predators. There are people who just they they prey on people for power, for money, for whatever else. What should people look out for?

SPEAKER_02 17:48

Well, uh here's what I'm gonna tell you to do. And it if it was me and I'm gonna join a random coven, right? And I'm searching for one, I'm gonna go spend those first few days with them. I'm gonna go to a full moon, I'm gonna go to a Sabbath.

SPEAKER_01 18:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 18:03

I'm gonna interact with them. Why? Because that gives me a chance to talk to all the other neophytes, it gives me a chance to talk to all the other first degrees, it gives me a chance to talk to all the other students. If they start putting up cues or stuff that I don't like that they're talking about when I ask them about classes and temple and stuff like this, I'm just not gonna go back. I would sit there and I would probably ask the high priestess and the high priest certain things and see what kind of answers I get. And if I don't like the answers, I'm not gonna go back. Everybody has this thing like, oh, I'm not allowed to test people or to ask questions. That whole entire concept that people have with elders, stop.

SPEAKER_01 18:51

If you walk into a situation and somebody that coven or those those leaders make you feel like you can't question them, there's your red flag.

SPEAKER_02 19:02

There's your red flag.

Debate Skills And The Triple Goddess

SPEAKER_02 19:05

You know, I'm not I'm not gonna say they're not gonna give you, they might look at you weird or certain questions, or might even snicker to themselves, or something like this. And it might not have nothing to do with it might have to do with something about the question, but kind of like that. I'm sorry, I I have a neophyte asked me a certain question during ritual or whatever, or while we're just talking, and it relates to a mission. I'm gonna sit there and kind of snicker, like, yeah, well, we'll get to that kind of later. Well, I cannot discuss this in a mixed room full of people because I got some first degrees, I got some seconds, I got some neophytes, and I got some people that don't even started classes yet. But you're asking me about a mystery.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

Schedule some time with me, we'll discuss it.

SPEAKER_02 19:54

Maybe. Maybe. But uh there's my point. If you're sitting there being told, okay, we'll get to that, well, you'll have to go through classes to learn that or whatever, that's not gatekeeping. That's them not it's not it's not them not answering the question. It's them saying, hey, there's a little bit more context there that you might, which we cover in class, and I'm not just going to cover in a conversation right after ritual about something.

SPEAKER_01 20:18

Right.

SPEAKER_02 20:19

Now don't take that. But again, if you're sitting there and you are made to feel like, oh, you you really can't ask the high priestess any questions whatsoever. What?

SPEAKER_01 20:30

Yeah, no, that's that's not a proper environment to be in.

SPEAKER_02 20:35

No, because I want to sit here and tell you right now, me and the lady during Sabbaths and stuff, we get asked questions all the time. Oh, absolutely, yeah. And yes, we answer them while we're trying to prep for ritual, going, yeah, well, there's this and then there's that, and I still gotta set up for ritual, but this is as far as we're gonna go right now, and I'm walking off.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

Right. Well, one last one last thing um before we wrap everything up. Is there anything that gives you hope that we can rebuild these healthy teaching structures and and and environments um inside of paganism?

SPEAKER_02 21:14

I do want to believe that there's a certain part of the uh pagan population that are kind of like, okay, we did the whole chaos thing and unorganized religion. And yeah, we're we're we're starting to agree with the traditionalists. We we do need some organization here. I I believe there is a part of the population that's starting to see what we've been talking about this whole entire time. And yes, there's still a part that's not. So, and I still don't know how to I do not know how to divide that gap because I I don't know how to get the that that side that won't listen to us to listen to what we're trying to say. Because this is the side that still gets up when people like me go, Yes, you have to be a witch to initiate another witch.

SPEAKER_01 21:58

Right.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

Oh, you're not respect that isn't what I said. I'm not talking about respecting you or not. I no, I just don't see you as a witch. You weren't initiated. I'm not saying you're a bad person or unmoral or or you're wrong in your beliefs. I you're your way is just as valid as anybody else's. If it gives you that spiritual connection.

SPEAKER_01 22:19

Right. And certainly not saying that you can't call yourself that, but I'm not going to recognize you as such. That's fair.

SPEAKER_02 22:26

But again, it's getting those people to sit back and going, okay, let's listen to what you're saying rationally and let's quit thinking all you're doing is attacking.

SPEAKER_01 22:37

Right.

SPEAKER_02 22:39

All right.

Red Flags When Vetting A Coven

SPEAKER_02 22:40

That's the part I would love to get across to these people. We're not attacking you. We're just stating our opinion. And I'm sorry you don't like it at times that certain things we go and say, yeah, we do have ethics, we do have morals. There should be some structure. You should be somewhat qualified and trained to counsel people in their problems. Personally, I don't understand why in the world everybody sees what we're doing is so bad.

SPEAKER_01 23:09

No, I don't either. But you know.

SPEAKER_02 23:11

Besides, they don't think they'd be able to become a part of it or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 23:15

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 23:16

I just I'm not saying they completely buy buy into everything or specifically our tradition.

SPEAKER_01 23:23

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_02 23:24

I'm just saying they're they're starting, I think there are more and more people starting to believe, okay, I understand the reason for Covens now.

SPEAKER_01 23:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 23:31

It's starting to make sense. You know, I've played in this playground long enough to where I I'm seeing what the traditionalists are talking about here. That's what gives me hope.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

Right.

SPEAKER_02 23:40

There is a certain percentage of the population that's starting to turn that way.

SPEAKER_01 23:43

So they're they're ready for a new sandbox, right?

SPEAKER_02 23:47

Well, again, these pendulums swing all over the place. Sure they do, yeah. There's my point. And to think anything's static in one place or another, that's where we shoot ourselves in the foot.

SPEAKER_01 23:59

Very true. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:01

If it swung to the to the whole uh solitaire thing during the 90s, why would it not start to swing back there to more groups later? Right. That's all we're saying.

SPEAKER_01 24:19

Well, let's hope so.

SPEAKER_02 24:20

I don't know if you see it or not, but I I see somewhere it seems like you got more people agreeing with us than we have disagreeing with us nowadays.

SPEAKER_01 24:28

Well, it's I'm seeing, I mean, usually what I see out on the forums and everything is I see a lot of I actually see a lot of traditionalists who are speaking up. Right. And I think that's helping a lot too.

SPEAKER_02 24:43

This is not what y'all think it is, and all that. I mean, we've been trying to do the same thing for a while now, too.

SPEAKER_01 24:49

Right.

SPEAKER_02 24:50

But yeah, I mean, there was this phase. This did happen in the pagan community, and and and now's what we have because of that. Right. Is that we have a lot of people that are completely confused, don't know what they're doing. And I see a lot of people, especially when they're trying to begin, everybody complained. It's so confusing. Even when I do go to the FD uh, you know, the the the what is it, the frequently asked questions, the FAQs and all this, it still don't make no sense. It's still confusing and all this.

SPEAKER_01 25:21

Right.

SPEAKER_02 25:21

Because we rejected the teachers.

SPEAKER_01 25:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:24

As a community, I'm not saying we all did, but that's what happened. And now y'all have confusion. And now y'all are tired of everybody getting on Reddit going, hey, I'm confused about this and this, and I keep on asking all these basic questions again, and y'all keep on turning me back to the FAQs aren't doing it for me.

SPEAKER_01 25:45

Right.

SPEAKER_02 25:46

And now you have this vicious cycle. Anytime you ask a beginning question, you just are told to go to an FAQ. Pretty much. You're not told to go to an You're not told,

Rebuilding Structures And Closing

SPEAKER_02 25:55

hey, go find a teacher.

SPEAKER_01 25:57

Right.

SPEAKER_02 25:58

Go find someone you can sit down and talk to. Again, we we replaced all our teachers with blogs, podcasts. Yeah, pretty much. And witch talk and all this other stuff.

SPEAKER_01 26:10

And you're not getting expecting Right. You're you're expecting information and knowledge that you're not gonna get.

SPEAKER_02 26:18

That you're not gonna get.

SPEAKER_01 26:20

So I know one thing we're gonna get some more coffee. Yay! Thanks for listening. Join us next week for another episode. Peg and Coffee Talk is brought to you by Life Temple and Seminary. Please visit us at Life Temple Seminary.org for more information, as well as links to our social media. Facebook, Discord, Twitter, YouTube, and Reddit.

SPEAKER_00 26:44

We travel down this trodden path, the maze of stone and mire. Just hold my hand as we pass by a steel blazing pyro. And so it is the end of our days to walk with me till morning breaks. And so it is the end of our days to walk with me till morning breaks.